#fediAdmin
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LearningQuestion:
Is it possible to define that images that don't have #altText do not show up in the trending and explore page?Somehow it doesn't look reasonable to promote posts that don't respect the community standards.
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LearningQuestion:
Is it possible to define that images that don't have #altText do not show up in the trending and explore page?Somehow it doesn't look reasonable to promote posts that don't respect the community standards.
@jesuisatire
Much as we would like alt txt if possible, there are good arguments for accepting that there is a "best effort" threshold and not applying specific sanctions when missing.The purported purpose of alt txt in most cases is accessibility, and that's great, yes, we want it.
However, the process of adding alt txt *is not accessible* for all users, and they should not be kept out of participation. This is a case for encouragement and education, not censure.
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@jesuisatire
Much as we would like alt txt if possible, there are good arguments for accepting that there is a "best effort" threshold and not applying specific sanctions when missing.The purported purpose of alt txt in most cases is accessibility, and that's great, yes, we want it.
However, the process of adding alt txt *is not accessible* for all users, and they should not be kept out of participation. This is a case for encouragement and education, not censure.
I wouldn't see not showing up on the explore page as censoring and I wonder what would be the cases when it's not possible to add altText nore at least an altText that states that for some reason there is none.
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I wouldn't see not showing up on the explore page as censoring and I wonder what would be the cases when it's not possible to add altText nore at least an altText that states that for some reason there is none.
@jesuisatire in the case of some of my users … their own visual and manual dexterity, interacting with the clients they use or have available, and cognitive fatigue due to covid or all kinds of other conditions. Yet, they are authors or people who have/need/want public reach. There is no particular reason another person needs to give to an admin for me to judge the validity of their need or challenge.
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@jesuisatire in the case of some of my users … their own visual and manual dexterity, interacting with the clients they use or have available, and cognitive fatigue due to covid or all kinds of other conditions. Yet, they are authors or people who have/need/want public reach. There is no particular reason another person needs to give to an admin for me to judge the validity of their need or challenge.
Singling out a person for different treatment based on a cognitive or neurological difference in ability is illegal where I live - strongly recommend keeping alt txt to a “best practice” advice unless you are prepared and able to implement a burden-free mechanism users CAN all access. And that is not as easy as it looks.
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Singling out a person for different treatment based on a cognitive or neurological difference in ability is illegal where I live - strongly recommend keeping alt txt to a “best practice” advice unless you are prepared and able to implement a burden-free mechanism users CAN all access. And that is not as easy as it looks.
Can't see the point that this is singeling out a user. This is about not promoting content that doesn't fullfil the community standards.
As already pointed out, those who have individual dificulties to create altText can add a standard altText stating that they can't. That way an altText exists and the criteria would not apply. Even the mastodon profile itself or APP's could offer to automatically fill out the altText field with such a text. That procedeing would even respect the visiually impaired as they at least get an altText note stating "sry I'd like but I can't".
Right now they are literally just left in the dark. -
Can't see the point that this is singeling out a user. This is about not promoting content that doesn't fullfil the community standards.
As already pointed out, those who have individual dificulties to create altText can add a standard altText stating that they can't. That way an altText exists and the criteria would not apply. Even the mastodon profile itself or APP's could offer to automatically fill out the altText field with such a text. That procedeing would even respect the visiually impaired as they at least get an altText note stating "sry I'd like but I can't".
Right now they are literally just left in the dark.Fair 'nuff - people at least on fedi who cannot meet community standards can find other communities.
Just sharing how I've been educated on the matter by people who face accessibility barriers and how implementation of such "solutions" are often barriers in themselves.
The precaution I take, as in most areas of accessibility, sustainability, inclusion, whatever is that absolutes are rarely inclusive or sustainable.
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Fair 'nuff - people at least on fedi who cannot meet community standards can find other communities.
Just sharing how I've been educated on the matter by people who face accessibility barriers and how implementation of such "solutions" are often barriers in themselves.
The precaution I take, as in most areas of accessibility, sustainability, inclusion, whatever is that absolutes are rarely inclusive or sustainable.
Doesn't look as if we are in disagreement at all. As every post, this is in the first place to gather opinions and view points on a matter.
What I don't get is why you are painting the request or idea so extrem. The explore page, in particular the publicly accessible one without being logged in, is just a detail on mastodon. No one is talking about blocking users for an instance or anything like that.It's just about not promoting something, not promoting being dismissive to the general inclusive intention of the community.
Your arguments lead to the useful consideration that an option to have standard altText field would create even more inclusiveness.
Actually those who consider "go f*** yourself with your altText's" could add that and be at least straight forward.
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Doesn't look as if we are in disagreement at all. As every post, this is in the first place to gather opinions and view points on a matter.
What I don't get is why you are painting the request or idea so extrem. The explore page, in particular the publicly accessible one without being logged in, is just a detail on mastodon. No one is talking about blocking users for an instance or anything like that.It's just about not promoting something, not promoting being dismissive to the general inclusive intention of the community.
Your arguments lead to the useful consideration that an option to have standard altText field would create even more inclusiveness.
Actually those who consider "go f*** yourself with your altText's" could add that and be at least straight forward.
hah, yeah, that last one is a good point.
I've been quietly working on fediverse governance thinking for ~ 5 or so years, though, and online community mgmt in general since before browsers showed images.
Applying an individual consequence, even if you or I would think it so innocuous like not putting someone's not-alt-txtd image on the public TL, to a "community standard" (eg, not a law or impartially-enforced rule) is, if not a slippery slope, then at least boggy ground.
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hah, yeah, that last one is a good point.
I've been quietly working on fediverse governance thinking for ~ 5 or so years, though, and online community mgmt in general since before browsers showed images.
Applying an individual consequence, even if you or I would think it so innocuous like not putting someone's not-alt-txtd image on the public TL, to a "community standard" (eg, not a law or impartially-enforced rule) is, if not a slippery slope, then at least boggy ground.
I can throw something a little more concrete (literally) out there from another space I govern, which is housing. A condo corporation has by-laws, and "Rules". But "Rules" get condos into trouble *all the damn time* with non-compliant residents, and the majority result is condos *lose* and lose big time, even if they're in the *right*, even if all but one resident agrees on the "community standard" and even if the complainant is the deviant.
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I can throw something a little more concrete (literally) out there from another space I govern, which is housing. A condo corporation has by-laws, and "Rules". But "Rules" get condos into trouble *all the damn time* with non-compliant residents, and the majority result is condos *lose* and lose big time, even if they're in the *right*, even if all but one resident agrees on the "community standard" and even if the complainant is the deviant.
If we have a rule that says "dogs only allowed if under 20 kgs" or "only these breeds", and someone moves in with a Rottweiler, the situation is legally unenforceable. All the resident has to do is claim the dog is their emotional support animal, or they would face difficulty if they had to re-home their furbaby, and the governors (analogy: your Fedi instance) is in the wrong.
Basically, the rules have to have allowances for breakage w/o consequence.
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If we have a rule that says "dogs only allowed if under 20 kgs" or "only these breeds", and someone moves in with a Rottweiler, the situation is legally unenforceable. All the resident has to do is claim the dog is their emotional support animal, or they would face difficulty if they had to re-home their furbaby, and the governors (analogy: your Fedi instance) is in the wrong.
Basically, the rules have to have allowances for breakage w/o consequence.
To save a HELL of a lot of governance headaches, most condo declarations where I am have a frequently-used phrase ... " ... except as explicitly permitted by the Board".
And the Board makes use of that to save a heck of a lot of trouble.
Back to my Fedi space - and I guess I've assumed all along, we are speaking of *my* users on *my* instance - ....
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To save a HELL of a lot of governance headaches, most condo declarations where I am have a frequently-used phrase ... " ... except as explicitly permitted by the Board".
And the Board makes use of that to save a heck of a lot of trouble.
Back to my Fedi space - and I guess I've assumed all along, we are speaking of *my* users on *my* instance - ....
if the balance of harms is such that my spoonie, artistic, struggling-author user has more trouble in 100% alt-txt compliance when they promo-post their book cover drafts than does some passer-by who is not in any way supporting or participating in my my instance but gets annoyed at a lack of alt txt, my user is entitled some grace.
Now, if you tell me there's a way to ALWAYS and AUTOMATICALLY insert alt-txt that says "oops, for some reason alt-txt didn't make it here" ...
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if the balance of harms is such that my spoonie, artistic, struggling-author user has more trouble in 100% alt-txt compliance when they promo-post their book cover drafts than does some passer-by who is not in any way supporting or participating in my my instance but gets annoyed at a lack of alt txt, my user is entitled some grace.
Now, if you tell me there's a way to ALWAYS and AUTOMATICALLY insert alt-txt that says "oops, for some reason alt-txt didn't make it here" ...
.... then my entire position is transformed.
The important parts are:Any rule has to be enforced uniformly without a higher burden of compliance on some than on others, and thus it has to be something that presents everyone with the same level of ease or challenge
NO sanction or privilege, even one you or I think is trivial, should be applied by a system based on an inherent individual dis/ability, because that pretty much violates the statement just above this one.
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.... then my entire position is transformed.
The important parts are:Any rule has to be enforced uniformly without a higher burden of compliance on some than on others, and thus it has to be something that presents everyone with the same level of ease or challenge
NO sanction or privilege, even one you or I think is trivial, should be applied by a system based on an inherent individual dis/ability, because that pretty much violates the statement just above this one.
"Community Standards" compliance like "use alt txt" is a realm for the subtler efforts of positive reinforcement, guidance and consensus-building. Save both the sanctions list and the software engineering effort for the many more functional tasks we have in the queues.
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To save a HELL of a lot of governance headaches, most condo declarations where I am have a frequently-used phrase ... " ... except as explicitly permitted by the Board".
And the Board makes use of that to save a heck of a lot of trouble.
Back to my Fedi space - and I guess I've assumed all along, we are speaking of *my* users on *my* instance - ....
> *my* (your) users on *my* (your) instance
*my* instances don't have users and the rules (TOS) are simple:
Terms of Service
* unknown
* contain lot's of small written rules
* change every day
* depend on the country you are posting from and the country you are posting to
* can't be breached until declared in the very moment
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> *my* (your) users on *my* (your) instance
*my* instances don't have users and the rules (TOS) are simple:
Terms of Service
* unknown
* contain lot's of small written rules
* change every day
* depend on the country you are posting from and the country you are posting to
* can't be breached until declared in the very moment️ehn.... totally different scope then - defederate everything that irks ya!
My very start in this world was from a social science vector, so I've always been a community governor - sorry for the scope mismatch.
thanks for the prompt to blather though, I'm throwing my wall'o'text into my drafts heap on moderator practice.
