With #HolosDiscover we checked multiple criteria before indexing: "indexable" enabled, account not locked, no #nobot or #noindex in bio, not in opted-out list, only public posts.
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@lexinova
The debate goes beyond that. The real question is why developers chose to enable "indexable" by default when creating an account. A default opt-in is effectively an opt-out. That's where the conversation should start.@apps this 100℅ the wrong people in being blamed here
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@apps if an account is marked as indexable, just index it. If the default is wrong, that's the instance admin fault, nit yours.
If Google can index it you can too.
If people are unhappy with the setting of their profile, they can change it or blame the software or the admin and not people of good faith like you.
Public toots are talking to the world in a megaphone by design, expecting privacy is absurd
@lutindiscret
We panicked quickly because things escalated beyond what we expected. But we still believe our approach was far more respectful than what's already happening: the same data is being exploited by others without users even knowing. At worst, we raised awareness. -
With #HolosDiscover we checked multiple criteria before indexing: "indexable" enabled, account not locked, no #nobot or #noindex in bio, not in opted-out list, only public posts. Every deletion, edit or block was processed instantly via #ActivityPub.
Google uses that same "indexable" flag but ignores everything else, keeps deleted content cached for weeks.
We shut it down after pushback. Was that the right call? Don't hesitate to share, this concerns the whole Fediverse.@apps Tough one: I feel like you did set it up respectfully, so it should have stayed up. BUT taking it down when people voice concerns and objected was also the right thing to do, both morally and for the reputation of the Holos project.
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We were caught off guard by the reactions and acted quickly. But we want to give the community a voice. We'll follow the result of this poll: if it should have stayed up, we'll reopen the source code and bring the service back.
@apps maybe make a post for the most used (mastodon), on witch settings change for people that do not want to allow this.
As they may have missed this or misunderstood what the switch did
And since one of the two is recommemded, it may make them allow thing they actually don't want
some may misunderstand both settings:
- Include public posts in search results
- Feature profile and posts in discovery algorithms -
We were caught off guard by the reactions and acted quickly. But we want to give the community a voice. We'll follow the result of this poll: if it should have stayed up, we'll reopen the source code and bring the service back.
@apps Fediverse search engines are a contentious subject with a bad history, so I undestand you shutting it down.
While I'm fine with it, many people are very against things like that.
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With #HolosDiscover we checked multiple criteria before indexing: "indexable" enabled, account not locked, no #nobot or #noindex in bio, not in opted-out list, only public posts. Every deletion, edit or block was processed instantly via #ActivityPub.
Google uses that same "indexable" flag but ignores everything else, keeps deleted content cached for weeks.
We shut it down after pushback. Was that the right call? Don't hesitate to share, this concerns the whole Fediverse.@apps@toot.fedilab.app accidentally voted wrong. I think it should stay. Search on small instances suck.
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With #HolosDiscover we checked multiple criteria before indexing: "indexable" enabled, account not locked, no #nobot or #noindex in bio, not in opted-out list, only public posts. Every deletion, edit or block was processed instantly via #ActivityPub.
Google uses that same "indexable" flag but ignores everything else, keeps deleted content cached for weeks.
We shut it down after pushback. Was that the right call? Don't hesitate to share, this concerns the whole Fediverse.@apps the things that concerned me at the time were, in the initial announcement, 'we follow every signal' but only in this post did we know what signals you were following; and language of 'people may have misunderstood the defaults' which unfortunately rhymes with what less conscientious organisations say to justify hoovering all the things
if i had known the list of things you were looking at, i would have simply checked them and slept well. i didn't, so i blocked the bot, which now proves to have been unnecessary
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@apps maybe make a post for the most used (mastodon), on witch settings change for people that do not want to allow this.
As they may have missed this or misunderstood what the switch did
And since one of the two is recommemded, it may make them allow thing they actually don't want
some may misunderstand both settings:
- Include public posts in search results
- Feature profile and posts in discovery algorithms@lexinova
We can't change how Mastodon presents those settings, but we had a page explaining how the service works and how to opt out per platform. We'll communicate even more clearly if the service comes back.Worth noting that this opt-in by default setting also allows Google to index fediverse profiles, except they don't check for consent at all. This is a much bigger issue that goes way beyond our project, which actually tries to do things the right way.
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@lutindiscret@mastodon.libre-entreprise.com @apps i can see a case where someone is fine with other fedi instances indexing known posts, but not bots or external services
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@lutindiscret
We panicked quickly because things escalated beyond what we expected. But we still believe our approach was far more respectful than what's already happening: the same data is being exploited by others without users even knowing. At worst, we raised awareness.@apps
You're right, and you're good people.However, people posting on social media expecting their postings to be private are Just Wrong.
And I will add that they're the ones making mastodon toxic at times, and I'm sorry you were a victim of them.
@lutindiscret -
@apps the things that concerned me at the time were, in the initial announcement, 'we follow every signal' but only in this post did we know what signals you were following; and language of 'people may have misunderstood the defaults' which unfortunately rhymes with what less conscientious organisations say to justify hoovering all the things
if i had known the list of things you were looking at, i would have simply checked them and slept well. i didn't, so i blocked the bot, which now proves to have been unnecessary
In the initial post, that sparked the discussion and led to the shutdown, there was a link to an article with an even deeper explanation. Maybe you didn't get it 'because federation' but it has been explained in detail from the start.
CC: @apps@toot.fedilab.app
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@lexinova
We can't change how Mastodon presents those settings, but we had a page explaining how the service works and how to opt out per platform. We'll communicate even more clearly if the service comes back.Worth noting that this opt-in by default setting also allows Google to index fediverse profiles, except they don't check for consent at all. This is a much bigger issue that goes way beyond our project, which actually tries to do things the right way.
The fediverse is built app-centric, where people build their own particular app functionality and use cases and then try to get a reasonable amount of interoperability with other apps (or only with themself in some cases).
I think the general issue is that in building a consent mechanism an app should not depend on consent mechanisms of other apps.
The fact that Mastodon does something with Indexable flag, and provides config settings in the UI is pure app-specific and not protocol functionality, not a native capability of the social network that can be relied upon.
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With #HolosDiscover we checked multiple criteria before indexing: "indexable" enabled, account not locked, no #nobot or #noindex in bio, not in opted-out list, only public posts. Every deletion, edit or block was processed instantly via #ActivityPub.
Google uses that same "indexable" flag but ignores everything else, keeps deleted content cached for weeks.
We shut it down after pushback. Was that the right call? Don't hesitate to share, this concerns the whole Fediverse.@apps
To be honest, I didn't understand any of what you wrote. Is there a page explaining the issue? -
With #HolosDiscover we checked multiple criteria before indexing: "indexable" enabled, account not locked, no #nobot or #noindex in bio, not in opted-out list, only public posts. Every deletion, edit or block was processed instantly via #ActivityPub.
Google uses that same "indexable" flag but ignores everything else, keeps deleted content cached for weeks.
We shut it down after pushback. Was that the right call? Don't hesitate to share, this concerns the whole Fediverse.So this dead horse flinched again
"With #HolosDiscover we checked multiple criteria before indexing: "indexable" enabled, account not locked, no #nobot or #noindex in bio, not in opted-out list, only public posts."
I'll copy-pasta with only slight edits:
My entire point (all the noise notwithstanding) focused on
Default opt-in versus default opt-out
This is an agent --> recipient transaction
Default opt-in: the recipient is opted into (and receives) the agent's action whether the recipient --> knows of <-- the action or not
Default opt-out: the recipient is opted out of (and cannot receive) the action whether the recipient --> knows of <-- the action or not
Neither default opt-in nor default opt-out have any logical meaning if
--> THE RECIPIENT DOES NOT KNOW OF THE AGENT <--
in advance
There was no mechanism for prior notification *before* indexing
People would have had to stumble on what you're doing, by how, exactly?
How dose the recipient learn of what you've done *before* you do it?
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So this dead horse flinched again
"With #HolosDiscover we checked multiple criteria before indexing: "indexable" enabled, account not locked, no #nobot or #noindex in bio, not in opted-out list, only public posts."
I'll copy-pasta with only slight edits:
My entire point (all the noise notwithstanding) focused on
Default opt-in versus default opt-out
This is an agent --> recipient transaction
Default opt-in: the recipient is opted into (and receives) the agent's action whether the recipient --> knows of <-- the action or not
Default opt-out: the recipient is opted out of (and cannot receive) the action whether the recipient --> knows of <-- the action or not
Neither default opt-in nor default opt-out have any logical meaning if
--> THE RECIPIENT DOES NOT KNOW OF THE AGENT <--
in advance
There was no mechanism for prior notification *before* indexing
People would have had to stumble on what you're doing, by how, exactly?
How dose the recipient learn of what you've done *before* you do it?
@FinchHaven @apps so you would like to be asked everytime a search engine wants to index your profile? That's like the cookie popups, I will just stop reading them at some point.
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@FinchHaven @apps so you would like to be asked everytime a search engine wants to index your profile? That's like the cookie popups, I will just stop reading them at some point.
This is the old, worn out Fediverse "Well anybody can search the Internet any time they want to so why do you care?"
Which 1) most people cannot, lacking the technical expertise, and 2) most people don't want to have happen to them anyway
<snip>
cc @apps
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This is the old, worn out Fediverse "Well anybody can search the Internet any time they want to so why do you care?"
Which 1) most people cannot, lacking the technical expertise, and 2) most people don't want to have happen to them anyway
<snip>
cc @apps
@FinchHaven @apps huh, that's not what I meant
The way I understood you, is that opt-in and opt-out don't work because the user doesn't know what service wants to do what with their profile.
Which to me sounded like you want to get a notification and decide manually everytime a service wants to index your profile. Did I get that wrong? -
@FinchHaven @apps huh, that's not what I meant
The way I understood you, is that opt-in and opt-out don't work because the user doesn't know what service wants to do what with their profile.
Which to me sounded like you want to get a notification and decide manually everytime a service wants to index your profile. Did I get that wrong?"The way I understood you, is that opt-in and opt-out don't work because the user doesn't know what service wants to do what with their profile."
My point was, the user doesn't even *know* the service exists when they''ve been opted-in and weird stuff starts happening
"Why are these people suddenly Liking and Boosting and Replying to my posts? I don't Follow them, they don't Follow me, they didn't use any hashtags I Follow and yet they're popping up in my Home Feed?"
They're already *using* a service you've been opted in to, without your knowing you've been opted in because you had no clue the service existed until *after* weird stuff happens in your Home feed
It's happened before
Byron Miller (supernovae @ Universeodon) and his famous reply "Well, in the four months of having (our) full-text search we haven't heard from anyone who has suffered personal harm because of our search."
That was good to know, anyway
BTW the link to that quote 404s because Byron left for Bluesky
cc @apps
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"The way I understood you, is that opt-in and opt-out don't work because the user doesn't know what service wants to do what with their profile."
My point was, the user doesn't even *know* the service exists when they''ve been opted-in and weird stuff starts happening
"Why are these people suddenly Liking and Boosting and Replying to my posts? I don't Follow them, they don't Follow me, they didn't use any hashtags I Follow and yet they're popping up in my Home Feed?"
They're already *using* a service you've been opted in to, without your knowing you've been opted in because you had no clue the service existed until *after* weird stuff happens in your Home feed
It's happened before
Byron Miller (supernovae @ Universeodon) and his famous reply "Well, in the four months of having (our) full-text search we haven't heard from anyone who has suffered personal harm because of our search."
That was good to know, anyway
BTW the link to that quote 404s because Byron left for Bluesky
cc @apps
"Which to me sounded like you want to get a notification and decide manually everytime a service wants to index your profile."
No. That won't work if I don't know what the service is and that it exists in the first place
The real point is that historically this has happened before, over the years, because people get opted-in to something they've never heard of, by default
"Which to me sounded like you want to get a notification and decide manually everytime a service wants to index your profile."
It's funny you mention this because Ryan "Bridgy" Barrett initially said he was going to send Mastodon people DMs which people (myself included) pointed out would not work, because most people have their DMs locked down
Again, here: https://github.com/snarfed/bridgy-fed/issues/880#issue-2136207725
cc @apps
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"Which to me sounded like you want to get a notification and decide manually everytime a service wants to index your profile."
No. That won't work if I don't know what the service is and that it exists in the first place
The real point is that historically this has happened before, over the years, because people get opted-in to something they've never heard of, by default
"Which to me sounded like you want to get a notification and decide manually everytime a service wants to index your profile."
It's funny you mention this because Ryan "Bridgy" Barrett initially said he was going to send Mastodon people DMs which people (myself included) pointed out would not work, because most people have their DMs locked down
Again, here: https://github.com/snarfed/bridgy-fed/issues/880#issue-2136207725
cc @apps
@FinchHaven @apps yea my point is that notifications wouldn't work. How do you envision indexing to be properly done then?
"No. That won't work if I don't know what the service is and that it exists in the first place"
They way in understood you, explanations of the service would be part of the notifications.
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