I don't think people here realized yet how much development has sped up in the "atmosphere*"
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@liaizon you're taking this WAY too personally, while we don't even know each other. I am very much entitled to my own opinion, btw, cofounder of Agora or not. I am not an anticapitalist anarchist, fine, so what? What the heck is this ad hominem attack? The whole point of Agora is to get people to talk to each other, people who usually don't appreciate each other, without trolling, and finding common ground. Your very reaction shows exactly why I build it.
@nicobao you involved yourself in this discussion by quoting my post and calling me an extremist. I'm not taking it personally anymore then you are here. Glad to have a public discussion about the ideological basis of protocol alignment!
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lol cool cool
@liaizon this is harassment.. you're getting your crowd to shit on me and misinterpret my words. I never said anything against Palestine. Anti capitalism and anarchism is by definition a far left ideology in pretty much every democracies world wide. This is just facts. I'm entitled to my opinion, so what? You guys are acting like mobs.
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@liaizon Seems to me that development on AT sped up *at the expense of* development on AP.
That is to say, a lot of the people who've gone all-in on AT were building here before, but have pretty much abandoned AP development. And it's worth examining why AT development was so much more appealing for those folks.
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@liaizon @ruben I think fediverse could still become mainstream, but clearly not through Mastodon.
I had pretty high hopes when Tumblr originally announced integrating ActivityPub, of course that's not happening anymore.
Less so with Meta's Threads, given the company's history.
Flipboard and Ghost are still putting in the effort, which is great, but those are not platforms used by regular social media users.
We really just need a new fediverse platform that's user-friendly. Seems like that's nearly impossible without VC money though, so I don't know.
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@nicobao you involved yourself in this discussion by quoting my post and calling me an extremist. I'm not taking it personally anymore then you are here. Glad to have a public discussion about the ideological basis of protocol alignment!
@liaizon I never called YOU an extremist. I called the ideology you mentioned "anarchism, anti capitalism" extremist. It is objectively extremist since it's far left. OWN IT. Your problem is taking it as an insult. It is not an insult for me. As we discussed on Bluesky it is simply not my cup of tea. And what I dislike the most in these ideologies is precisely what you showcased here: mob mentality.
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@liaizon "extreme ideology" like thinking genocide bad hmm...
@squeakypancakes @liaizon this is defamation. I was talking about anarchism and anti-capitalism. Not Palestine. Being extremist can be good, it's just being on the extreme of the political spectrum. But the spectrum can move too. It is not an insult. You guys are mobs, it's insane. Where is civility?
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@liaizon "I don't want to be on the same instance as ICE"
"You must be what people call an extremist"@neauoire @liaizon this is defamation. I was talking about anarchism and anti-capitalism. Not Palestine. Being extremist can be good, it's just being on the extreme of the political spectrum. But the spectrum can move too. It is not an insult. You guys are mobs, it's insane. Where is civility here? It's supposed to be part of the moderation rules btw.
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@squeakypancakes @liaizon this is defamation. I was talking about anarchism and anti-capitalism. Not Palestine. Being extremist can be good, it's just being on the extreme of the political spectrum. But the spectrum can move too. It is not an insult. You guys are mobs, it's insane. Where is civility?
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@squeakypancakes @liaizon what am I oppressing by saying anarchism and anti-capitalism is an extremist ideology? It's far left. Far. You guys are oppressing ME
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@squeakypancakes @liaizon what am I oppressing by saying anarchism and anti-capitalism is an extremist ideology? It's far left. Far. You guys are oppressing ME
@squeakypancakes @liaizon And even if I'm wrong and it's not extremist. What I am oppressing by saying those words and barely disagreeing with you? (though this was a post on Bluesky I was not even talking to you)
You guys need seriously introspection
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lol cool cool
@liaizon also I don't think people know the difference between extremist and radical
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@Bike I mostly agree about the reasons you mention here. I guess the part that I am uncertain is what exactly "won" will look like. I don't see the current fediverse going away, but I do fail to see any path at this getting mainstream adoption like bluesky is currently getting. and that narrative concerns me. I think there are still avenues that must be taken to work together on a shared future path.
@liaizon @Bike seems like the "mainstream" is still very much TBD. In the big picture it has almost no adoption, is losing active users by the day and all the supposed other applications for ATproto are virtually unused currently.
5 million MAU really isn't much and the startup is also probably going to have to find more funding soon.
Of course it's possible that all the excitement leads to newly found success but it doesn't seem like there's anything suggesting that is an inevitability.
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@neauoire @liaizon this is defamation. I was talking about anarchism and anti-capitalism. Not Palestine. Being extremist can be good, it's just being on the extreme of the political spectrum. But the spectrum can move too. It is not an insult. You guys are mobs, it's insane. Where is civility here? It's supposed to be part of the moderation rules btw.
@nicobao @liaizon My making fun of your use of extreme is merely pointing out something I find a bit.. intense.
From where I'm standing, the agency that is afforded to instances in comparison to AT's centralized DID model, is not an extreme position but the barest of minimum, a baseline for communication networks.
There is just no way that your sentiment that you'd rather "run away" from a place that is explicitly going the other way from crypto investment wasn't going to be perceived as a leveled moderate opinion..?
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lol cool cool
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@nicobao @liaizon My making fun of your use of extreme is merely pointing out something I find a bit.. intense.
From where I'm standing, the agency that is afforded to instances in comparison to AT's centralized DID model, is not an extreme position but the barest of minimum, a baseline for communication networks.
There is just no way that your sentiment that you'd rather "run away" from a place that is explicitly going the other way from crypto investment wasn't going to be perceived as a leveled moderate opinion..?
@neauoire @liaizon that's a fair point and I do respect the Palestine argument. I didn't even know this information until OP pointed it out. I fully respect this take and I do not consider this extremist, and even if I did well we can discuss it normally.
My problem is my initial tweet was reacting to the anarchist/anti capitalist/anti VC ethos which is way more objectively, an extremist PoV (which is fine. Just not my cup of tea).
It's a misunderstanding.
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@liaizon I never called YOU an extremist. I called the ideology you mentioned "anarchism, anti capitalism" extremist. It is objectively extremist since it's far left. OWN IT. Your problem is taking it as an insult. It is not an insult for me. As we discussed on Bluesky it is simply not my cup of tea. And what I dislike the most in these ideologies is precisely what you showcased here: mob mentality.
Just because something isn't an insult for you, doesn't make the application of it by you any less of an attempt at an insult.
And because a number of people on Fedi may disagree with you, doesn't make it a mob mentality. It means that people have been subjected to those rhetorical tools in the past, generally in bad faith as a form of harm, and it is likely you are pissing off even more people because of your particular (and somewhat tone deaf) perspective.
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@neauoire @liaizon that's a fair point and I do respect the Palestine argument. I didn't even know this information until OP pointed it out. I fully respect this take and I do not consider this extremist, and even if I did well we can discuss it normally.
My problem is my initial tweet was reacting to the anarchist/anti capitalist/anti VC ethos which is way more objectively, an extremist PoV (which is fine. Just not my cup of tea).
It's a misunderstanding.
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@liaizon this story feels a lot like the solid project https://solidproject.org/
Big splash at the beginning, some nerds get involved... but it's been years now, and when I tried to actually use one of the apps using it, UX was atrocious and I had to join a matrix room to get it working. Now I know I'm not the l33test hacker, but come on!
@douginamug @liaizon bsky is already usable by normal people imo, probably will get better from here
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@liaizon Yep, said pretty much the same thing the other day.
To me, the one key feature we need is the ability to disable replies, and maybe also control who can reply, those are top 1 and 10 requests on Mastodon's GitHub, and both have been open for several years.
The team's response: it's too hard. Which, fair enough. But putting any effort into UX/UI polishing, as needed as that is, will be wasted as so many people already left because of the constant harassment and gatekeeping.
I also pointed out that by the time Bluesky's VC money runs out, there might already be enough independent communities running the full ATProto stack, so people will just be able to migrate without needing to ever look at the fediverse again.
@stefan @liaizon things that may be in the way of that are:
1. fully independent communities don't seem to come cheap with ATproto
2. there's almost no effort to get people to anything else besides the corporate servers so the alternate infrastructure is unlikely to be at a scale that would support any significant migrations at that point
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