I don't think people here realized yet how much development has sped up in the "atmosphere*"
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If the Pixelfed/Loops user wants to disable comments, and other software doesn't respect that, why would the Pixel/Loops user care about ghost threads/replies?
We're focused on providing better/safer experiences for our users, and if other platforms don't abide by that, okay, but I'm not sure it's as pressing of an issue as you think it is.
We will get this fixed with interactionPolicy, people love our platforms because we have supported this for years.
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@dansup Really nice to see someone taking safety features seriously!
Do hidden comments federate? That is honestly a great feature to have, I only thought of this recently during a conversation around reply controls, as a potential way to deal with the delay caused by the roundtrips needed to verify if a reply can be posted.
(Presumably this works differently on Loops, definitely curious to learn more.)
@stefan @liaizon We don't yet federate the hidden state, but soon will.
If you have a Loops.video account, you can see this in action here (press Load more until you see the Show hidden comments button): https://loops.video/v/5YvxWOxcRa
(Hidden comments require auth, but I'm going to remove that limitation in the next update)
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I don't think people here realized yet how much development has sped up in the "atmosphere*"
I fear for the future of the fediverse if we don't get our shit together in some key areas. The way the lexicon system over there allows interoperability between distinct types of data and interface is really showing now that the developer ecosystem is picking up.
*The network comprised of different stuff that uses AT Proto
@liaizon okay so what exactly do we need to have and why?
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@stefan @liaizon We don't yet federate the hidden state, but soon will.
If you have a Loops.video account, you can see this in action here (press Load more until you see the Show hidden comments button): https://loops.video/v/5YvxWOxcRa
(Hidden comments require auth, but I'm going to remove that limitation in the next update)
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@cdonat @admin @anewsocial if you want to start with a base thats already in the wild and working, WAFRN or Bridgy Fed are the only options today.
Thank you very much. Since I like Python more than TypeScript, Bridgy is probably the best starting point.
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@liaizon okay so what exactly do we need to have and why?
@elexia have you explored how the lexicon system there works?
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@elexia have you explored how the lexicon system there works?
@liaizon no. what could have possibly prompted me to do this? I don't use the thing.
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I don't think people here realized yet how much development has sped up in the "atmosphere*"
I fear for the future of the fediverse if we don't get our shit together in some key areas. The way the lexicon system over there allows interoperability between distinct types of data and interface is really showing now that the developer ecosystem is picking up.
*The network comprised of different stuff that uses AT Proto
@liaizon If my understanding of things is correct, this seems like the kind of thing that could be accomplished in the fediverse using ActivityPub C2S. Which of course depends on C2S actually getting some use... but a more generic ActivityPub server with varying C2S frontends could get us there, I think
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@liaizon we have always been able to do that. We are just strangled by mastodon dominance and what it accepts
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@liaizon@wake.st I think that development is good for both. In my mind the fediverse will never be a replacement for mainstream social media, but a strong counter-culture presence. On the other hand, I feel atmosphere does have aspirations to replace social media (along with a lot of its harms).
If the outcome is Fedi as space B + Atmosphere as mainstream social media instead of Fedi as space B + Twitter/Instagram/etc as mainstream media, I think we've had a win. -
Bluesky also has its roots in other anarchist alternative networks. It takes a lot of inspiration from the core architects being involved in SSB (Secure Scuttlebutt)
@liaizon blusky is one website so far so centralized it's just twitter lite. -
@liaizon @ruben I think fediverse could still become mainstream, but clearly not through Mastodon.
I had pretty high hopes when Tumblr originally announced integrating ActivityPub, of course that's not happening anymore.
Less so with Meta's Threads, given the company's history.
Flipboard and Ghost are still putting in the effort, which is great, but those are not platforms used by regular social media users.
We really just need a new fediverse platform that's user-friendly. Seems like that's nearly impossible without VC money though, so I don't know.
@stefan@stefanbohacek.online @liaizon Yeah, I'm definitely thinking more from the microblogging point-of-view, which I use more. I can see pixelfed, something like piefed, or a brand-new type of application eventually going there.
I think it could be mainstream, but I don't feel strongly about whether it should.
The culture/s fostered in the fediverse seem to me at-odds with current mainstream social media culture: connection vs consumption, control vs convenience, small and close-knit vs firehose, etc. I think a culture shift more than a technical/ux one would determine this.
I would still like to see all those technical and user-friendliness improvements come to fedi though.
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@liaizon If my understanding of things is correct, this seems like the kind of thing that could be accomplished in the fediverse using ActivityPub C2S. Which of course depends on C2S actually getting some use... but a more generic ActivityPub server with varying C2S frontends could get us there, I think
@jfred there are lots of paths that could help, this being one of them, but some of those paths would actually need a combined effort and be widely promoted so that the ecosystem actually starts adopting them and that takes quite alot of time
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@stefan@stefanbohacek.online @liaizon Yeah, I'm definitely thinking more from the microblogging point-of-view, which I use more. I can see pixelfed, something like piefed, or a brand-new type of application eventually going there.
I think it could be mainstream, but I don't feel strongly about whether it should.
The culture/s fostered in the fediverse seem to me at-odds with current mainstream social media culture: connection vs consumption, control vs convenience, small and close-knit vs firehose, etc. I think a culture shift more than a technical/ux one would determine this.
I would still like to see all those technical and user-friendliness improvements come to fedi though.@ruben All very good points!
And honestly, I also care less about fediverse being mainstream than about growing the diversity here.
But also, I really do want us to move beyond corporations being the middlemen of our social connections. Honestly, if ATProto takes off, Bluesky eventually folds, and the future is independent Atmosphere communities, that's really not so bad.
I care a lot less about the tech stack than who controls it.
(Okay, I will never get used to the ATProto-style usernames, for that reason alone, I hope the fediverse "wins".)
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Shout out to WAFRN (@admin) and @anewsocial for taking the uncomfortable position of straddling the space inbetween protocols. I think this is truly the strategy that is going to be needed if we want to "win" the push towards an open social web for the whole internet.
@liaizon ohh wafrn looks very cool
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@liaizon ohh wafrn looks very cool
@fivexhotel try it out. They already have an Android app too that's very good
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I will say here again I am very much on team fediverse and the anarchist anticapitalist free culture side of networks. Bluesky has some "help" with dirty money vc bullshit. There are many things Bluesky (the company) is doing that is awful (like verifying ICE ffs and deleting Palestinian accounts) and those are things I have been continuously pointing out as well.
@liaizon I think Bsky/atp has already won the protocol war in the sense that it will be the dominant mainstream federated social media platform of the future (unfortunately). I think there's a few reasons why this happened. one is that it was a closer like for like X/Twitter replacement during the musk takeover and only had a single instantiation at the time vs Masto/fedi having a bunch and needing an explainer about them. I also think that therev was a decent amount of FUD that was put out at the time about fedi being confusing that hindered its adoption. lastly I think "big" accounts were put off by the idea of server level defederation. Someday I think someone will write the post-mortem of the Twitter succession crisis and I feel these 3 things will be key points for why bsky gained momentum -
@liaizon I think Bsky/atp has already won the protocol war in the sense that it will be the dominant mainstream federated social media platform of the future (unfortunately). I think there's a few reasons why this happened. one is that it was a closer like for like X/Twitter replacement during the musk takeover and only had a single instantiation at the time vs Masto/fedi having a bunch and needing an explainer about them. I also think that therev was a decent amount of FUD that was put out at the time about fedi being confusing that hindered its adoption. lastly I think "big" accounts were put off by the idea of server level defederation. Someday I think someone will write the post-mortem of the Twitter succession crisis and I feel these 3 things will be key points for why bsky gained momentum
@Bike I mostly agree about the reasons you mention here. I guess the part that I am uncertain is what exactly "won" will look like. I don't see the current fediverse going away, but I do fail to see any path at this getting mainstream adoption like bluesky is currently getting. and that narrative concerns me. I think there are still avenues that must be taken to work together on a shared future path.
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@Bike I mostly agree about the reasons you mention here. I guess the part that I am uncertain is what exactly "won" will look like. I don't see the current fediverse going away, but I do fail to see any path at this getting mainstream adoption like bluesky is currently getting. and that narrative concerns me. I think there are still avenues that must be taken to work together on a shared future path.
@liaizon for me both protocols have very different success conditions. In both cases having more users off the main platforms of tiktok, Facebook, Instagram, etc is a condition. but for bsky I think it looks like total users but for fedi in think it's number of servers too.
I think that the difficulty of deploying servers was part of the reason we didn't get larger adoption. I think what fedi is great at -smaller communities having both internal and external conversations - was hampered by those groups needing to have a server deployed. The communities that would have benefited went to discord instead, and the people whov wanted microblogging wanted universal reach.
I dont know how solveable this problem was for fedi given "it's too hard to make a webserver" has been a problem since geocities. -
@liaizon no. what could have possibly prompted me to do this? I don't use the thing.
@liaizon sorry, that came out too confrontational.
after further consideration I don't think I currently care enough about this topic to engage with it at the necessary depth to have a meaningful conversation. not a super techy person anymore.
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