Fedicon Livestream
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@johnefrancis @julian @evan what a damn good looking mug!!
I think the “Moosetodon Movement” means more than just mstdn.ca, further solidified at #FediCon; a movement country wide to kick the Zuckerverse to the curb.
We still have a lot of work to do but I believe our small but mighty community is working toward that common goal.
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@julian
TLDR; but if it's akin to a viable microparyment service, then let's use it to pay rights holders for their IP. It could be commission-free small amounts that are still greater than the royalties proprietary incumbents pay and could attract a critical mass through a/ better pay & b/ ethical tech.
@reiver -
I forget who caught me in the after party chaos and so wisely noted that Social Media != Social Network and among my FediUrbanism 2.0 revisions needs to be the idea that an online Social Network can possibly come closest to a true Third Space, but Social Media contains too many antithetical attributes.
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julian:
I'd love to put some of my creative and cat-herding energies toward developing an implementor-first place for AP developer support
Come help us with the reboot of SocialHub, this is and has always been the vision. I'm 100% on board with making SH more fun! I am after all a member of fediverse.party, and the creator of the Freudian Typo of the Week : P. How about some new categories specifically for new implementers to compare notes, or for things like novelty implementations? We're totally open to ideas.
johannab:Social Media != Social Network
It's hard to know what to make of this in the absence of definitions of each. From context, I'm guessing that for you Social Media = Datafarming corporate platforms, yes? How would you define Social Networks?
I tend to use both terms in their original usages (circa early 2000s). Where "social media" is open publishing with comments (blogging, vlogging, code forges with built-in bug tracking etc), so anyone can publish media and get rapid feedback. While "social network" covers any tool that enables regular interactions between people who know each other, 1:1 or in bounded groups (email, IM, group chat, web forums, link-sharing, etc).
By those definitions the current fediverse is a mixture of both. It's heavily weighted towards social media, but there's a lot of work being done to extend AP (in FRPs and SocialCG taskforces and elsewhere) so it can offer more social networking features.
To be clear, we don't disagree here, I'm just slicing the onion on a different angle
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julian:
I'd love to put some of my creative and cat-herding energies toward developing an implementor-first place for AP developer support
Come help us with the reboot of SocialHub, this is and has always been the vision. I'm 100% on board with making SH more fun! I am after all a member of fediverse.party, and the creator of the Freudian Typo of the Week : P. How about some new categories specifically for new implementers to compare notes, or for things like novelty implementations? We're totally open to ideas.
johannab:Social Media != Social Network
It's hard to know what to make of this in the absence of definitions of each. From context, I'm guessing that for you Social Media = Datafarming corporate platforms, yes? How would you define Social Networks?
I tend to use both terms in their original usages (circa early 2000s). Where "social media" is open publishing with comments (blogging, vlogging, code forges with built-in bug tracking etc), so anyone can publish media and get rapid feedback. While "social network" covers any tool that enables regular interactions between people who know each other, 1:1 or in bounded groups (email, IM, group chat, web forums, link-sharing, etc).
By those definitions the current fediverse is a mixture of both. It's heavily weighted towards social media, but there's a lot of work being done to extend AP (in FRPs and SocialCG taskforces and elsewhere) so it can offer more social networking features.
To be clear, we don't disagree here, I'm just slicing the onion on a different angle
strypey:It’s hard to know what to make of this in the absence of definitions of each.
I recentely tooted my definitions. Maybe they are useful to others:
My definition of social networking is: Any direct and indirect human interaction between people.
Social media then is a particular set of social networking use cases where people publish content to other people to interact with in a variety of ways.
In any case social media are but a small subset of social networking against these definitions.
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... and unplanned
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@julian
TLDR; but if it's akin to a viable microparyment service, then let's use it to pay rights holders for their IP. It could be commission-free small amounts that are still greater than the royalties proprietary incumbents pay and could attract a critical mass through a/ better pay & b/ ethical tech.
@reiverYes
On the Fediverse, the hard part is connecting the payment to the payment to the IP that you're purchasing. It means adding in a whole layer of identity and permissions that probably don't exist on most servers.
I believe sub.club managed this with a private "invite only" Mastodon feed, but we can go more granular than that.
I have a prototype working with #Emissary and Bandwagon.fm, and we'll need this tech on many more platforms to make a real difference.
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strypey:
It’s hard to know what to make of this in the absence of definitions of each.
I recentely tooted my definitions. Maybe they are useful to others:
My definition of social networking is: Any direct and indirect human interaction between people.
Social media then is a particular set of social networking use cases where people publish content to other people to interact with in a variety of ways.
In any case social media are but a small subset of social networking against these definitions.
Interesting. I usually see social networking defined as a subset of social media. The definition of a social network site that's usually referenced is from danah boyd and Nicole Ellison's 2007 paper on Social Network Sites: Definition, History, and Scholarship:
We define social network sites as web-based services that allow individuals to (1) construct a public or semi-public profile within a bounded system, (2) articulate a list of other users with whom they share a connection, and (3) view and traverse their list of connections and those made by others within the system. The nature and nomenclature of these connections may vary from site to site.
By this definition, email, blogs without blogrolls, Signal (where I can't view or traverse others lists of connections) are all examples of social media, but not social networks.
boyd and ellison also talk about the rise of social network sites, including noting that several well-known examples started as non-networked social media:
From 2003 onward, many new SNSs were launched, prompting social software analyst Clay Shirky (2003) to coin the term YASNS: "Yet Another Social Networking Service." Most took the form of profile-centric sites, trying to replicate the early success of Friendster or target specific demographics.... Furthermore, as the social media and user-generated content phenomena grew, websites focused on media sharing began implementing SNS features and becoming SNSs themselves. Examples include Flickr (photo sharing), Last.FM (music listening habits), and YouTube (video sharing).
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Interesting. I usually see social networking defined as a subset of social media. The definition of a social network site that's usually referenced is from danah boyd and Nicole Ellison's 2007 paper on Social Network Sites: Definition, History, and Scholarship:
We define social network sites as web-based services that allow individuals to (1) construct a public or semi-public profile within a bounded system, (2) articulate a list of other users with whom they share a connection, and (3) view and traverse their list of connections and those made by others within the system. The nature and nomenclature of these connections may vary from site to site.
By this definition, email, blogs without blogrolls, Signal (where I can't view or traverse others lists of connections) are all examples of social media, but not social networks.
boyd and ellison also talk about the rise of social network sites, including noting that several well-known examples started as non-networked social media:
From 2003 onward, many new SNSs were launched, prompting social software analyst Clay Shirky (2003) to coin the term YASNS: "Yet Another Social Networking Service." Most took the form of profile-centric sites, trying to replicate the early success of Friendster or target specific demographics.... Furthermore, as the social media and user-generated content phenomena grew, websites focused on media sharing began implementing SNS features and becoming SNSs themselves. Examples include Flickr (photo sharing), Last.FM (music listening habits), and YouTube (video sharing).
jdp23:Interesting. I usually see social networking defined as a subset of social media.
I am using these definitions in the context of social experience design, which starts looking at social networking solutions at a personal perspective. Here a person's 'social experience' starts when they wake up in the morning and social activities start to stream into their senses. I.e. it starts in the real world, offline, where technology fulfills only a supportive role in connecting people and social interactions.
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jdp23:
Interesting. I usually see social networking defined as a subset of social media.
I am using these definitions in the context of social experience design, which starts looking at social networking solutions at a personal perspective. Here a person's 'social experience' starts when they wake up in the morning and social activities start to stream into their senses. I.e. it starts in the real world, offline, where technology fulfills only a supportive role in connecting people and social interactions.
Fair enough. boyd and Ellison are specifically talking about social network sites, the technological artifacts. In practice people sometimes use the term "social network" to refer to the network of people (and sometimes organizations) and their collections, and sometimes to refer to the technological artifact.
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Yes
On the Fediverse, the hard part is connecting the payment to the payment to the IP that you're purchasing. It means adding in a whole layer of identity and permissions that probably don't exist on most servers.
I believe sub.club managed this with a private "invite only" Mastodon feed, but we can go more granular than that.
I have a prototype working with #Emissary and Bandwagon.fm, and we'll need this tech on many more platforms to make a real difference.
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Regardless of the payment method, it’s still extra work to figure out who has paid for which content, and most Fediverse servers don’t have this in place yet, so crypto wouldn’t solve that part of the puzzle.
Separate from that, I’m pretty down on crypto - specifically because it seems like an end run around having a well-regulated banking system.
But I’m willing to be open; is there a good reason to look into crypto payments BEFORE direct bank transfers?
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Regardless of the payment method, it’s still extra work to figure out who has paid for which content, and most Fediverse servers don’t have this in place yet, so crypto wouldn’t solve that part of the puzzle.
Separate from that, I’m pretty down on crypto - specifically because it seems like an end run around having a well-regulated banking system.
But I’m willing to be open; is there a good reason to look into crypto payments BEFORE direct bank transfers?
Hi @benpate @gregalotl @julian @reiver,
maybe #GNU_Taler can simplify transfers of assets, including fiat currencies. But isn't that orthogonal to messaging and #ActivityPub? -
Interesting. I usually see social networking defined as a subset of social media. The definition of a social network site that's usually referenced is from danah boyd and Nicole Ellison's 2007 paper on Social Network Sites: Definition, History, and Scholarship:
We define social network sites as web-based services that allow individuals to (1) construct a public or semi-public profile within a bounded system, (2) articulate a list of other users with whom they share a connection, and (3) view and traverse their list of connections and those made by others within the system. The nature and nomenclature of these connections may vary from site to site.
By this definition, email, blogs without blogrolls, Signal (where I can't view or traverse others lists of connections) are all examples of social media, but not social networks.
boyd and ellison also talk about the rise of social network sites, including noting that several well-known examples started as non-networked social media:
From 2003 onward, many new SNSs were launched, prompting social software analyst Clay Shirky (2003) to coin the term YASNS: "Yet Another Social Networking Service." Most took the form of profile-centric sites, trying to replicate the early success of Friendster or target specific demographics.... Furthermore, as the social media and user-generated content phenomena grew, websites focused on media sharing began implementing SNS features and becoming SNSs themselves. Examples include Flickr (photo sharing), Last.FM (music listening habits), and YouTube (video sharing).
Jon P said in Fedicon Livestream:
> nteresting. I usually see social networking defined as a subset of social media.Indeed. This is how it's often used in the social sciences that study online activity. Social Networking Sites are sites like Facebook, that require account following, or even bidirectional follows, while "social media" is everything from BBSes to forums to blogs with comment sections to, well, Social Networking Sites.
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Hi @benpate @gregalotl @julian @reiver,
maybe #GNU_Taler can simplify transfers of assets, including fiat currencies. But isn't that orthogonal to messaging and #ActivityPub?Yes. I'm looking into Taler and Interleger (Open Payments) for direct fiat currency transfer.
And yes, payments are *very* different from how (most of) the Fediverse works right now.
There was an service called sub.club ~ which unfortunately shut down recently ~ that was experimenting with charging money for access to premium newsfeeds.
I'm doing that now with #Emissary, along with letting bands sell albums over Bandwagon.fm
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Yes. I'm looking into Taler and Interleger (Open Payments) for direct fiat currency transfer.
And yes, payments are *very* different from how (most of) the Fediverse works right now.
There was an service called sub.club ~ which unfortunately shut down recently ~ that was experimenting with charging money for access to premium newsfeeds.
I'm doing that now with #Emissary, along with letting bands sell albums over Bandwagon.fm
That was the main point of my presentation at #Fedicon2025, that:
1. We need a real payment infrastructure here on the Fediverse.
2. We need to do it well, to avoid the (numerous) sins of the past.
3. I'm doing that right now, PLEASE HELP ME OMG.
I can't wait until the videos are up, then I can just link to that presentation a thousand times, because I laid out my entire life's purpose in it.
