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NodeBB-ActivityPub Bridge Test Instance

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  5. Explaining the fediverse is a hard problem.

Explaining the fediverse is a hard problem.

Scheduled Pinned Locked Moved AP Test (community.nodebb.org)
fedidevactivitypubfediverseopenbeta
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  • eeeee@community.nodebb.orgE This user is from outside of this forum
    eeeee@community.nodebb.orgE This user is from outside of this forum
    eeeee@community.nodebb.org
    wrote on last edited by
    #16

    Omega, I get it that you dont like the word Federated. Are you in USA where this has more historical connotations?

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    • eeeee@community.nodebb.orgE This user is from outside of this forum
      eeeee@community.nodebb.orgE This user is from outside of this forum
      eeeee@community.nodebb.org
      wrote on last edited by
      #17

      I already use Mastodon as apposed to Twitter so guess thats why Im onboard.
      So my interested would be further federation, if I could forget Mastodon and use my community.nodebb login in a mastodon type app, that would be great.
      With whats already implemented, how far off is the principle of using my Federation nodebb account outside of this websiye @julian ?

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      • eeeee@community.nodebb.orgE This user is from outside of this forum
        eeeee@community.nodebb.orgE This user is from outside of this forum
        eeeee@community.nodebb.org
        wrote on last edited by
        #18

        @julian I wanted to message mastodon account and reply from there, as part of Omegas 20 word challenge.
        I didnt get the message to my Mathstodon.xyz account, why might that be?

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        • julian@community.nodebb.orgJ This user is from outside of this forum
          julian@community.nodebb.orgJ This user is from outside of this forum
          julian@community.nodebb.org
          wrote on last edited by
          #19

          @eeeee where's the response you're looking for?

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          • eeeee@community.nodebb.orgE This user is from outside of this forum
            eeeee@community.nodebb.orgE This user is from outside of this forum
            eeeee@community.nodebb.org
            wrote on last edited by
            #20
            This post is deleted!
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            • evehiclefan@mathstodon.xyzE This user is from outside of this forum
              evehiclefan@mathstodon.xyzE This user is from outside of this forum
              evehiclefan@mathstodon.xyz
              wrote on last edited by
              #21

              @eeeee
              Ah worked this time!

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              • eeeee@community.nodebb.orgE This user is from outside of this forum
                eeeee@community.nodebb.orgE This user is from outside of this forum
                eeeee@community.nodebb.org
                wrote on last edited by
                #22
                This post is deleted!
                julian@community.nodebb.orgJ 1 Reply Last reply
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                • eeeee@community.nodebb.orgE eeeee@community.nodebb.org

                  This post is deleted!

                  julian@community.nodebb.orgJ This user is from outside of this forum
                  julian@community.nodebb.orgJ This user is from outside of this forum
                  julian@community.nodebb.org
                  wrote on last edited by
                  #23

                  @eeeee thanks! Will record for fixing

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                  • caesar@community.nodebb.orgC This user is from outside of this forum
                    caesar@community.nodebb.orgC This user is from outside of this forum
                    caesar@community.nodebb.org
                    wrote on last edited by
                    #24

                    Honestly I think that if interoperability between different types of federated platforms Just Worked people would "understand" it more intuitively, because they'd see it in action instead of it having to be explained to them as an abstract concept.

                    I'm a fairly tech-savvy user, and I perfectly understand what federation is and how it works on a technical level, but even I find the UI aspects often confusing or downright impossible to figure out.
                    For example, I saw this thread from my Mastodon client because I followed the ActivityPub topic on this forum from my Mastodon account. In my Mastodon client the posts appear as boosts, but mostly with broken HTML formatting. I clicked through to this forum to read the thread properly. I then wanted to "like" / +1 a post, so I copied the permalink into my Mastodon client like I would for a post on a different Mastodon instance, but it couldn't find anything. In the end I had to log into my local account on this forum instead.

                    Don't get me wrong, the UI problems are very difficult to get right. But I think they're more important than documentation. When it Just Works, people will grok it and documentation/explanation won't be needed.

                    julian@community.nodebb.orgJ 1 Reply Last reply
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                    • caesar@community.nodebb.orgC caesar@community.nodebb.org

                      Honestly I think that if interoperability between different types of federated platforms Just Worked people would "understand" it more intuitively, because they'd see it in action instead of it having to be explained to them as an abstract concept.

                      I'm a fairly tech-savvy user, and I perfectly understand what federation is and how it works on a technical level, but even I find the UI aspects often confusing or downright impossible to figure out.
                      For example, I saw this thread from my Mastodon client because I followed the ActivityPub topic on this forum from my Mastodon account. In my Mastodon client the posts appear as boosts, but mostly with broken HTML formatting. I clicked through to this forum to read the thread properly. I then wanted to "like" / +1 a post, so I copied the permalink into my Mastodon client like I would for a post on a different Mastodon instance, but it couldn't find anything. In the end I had to log into my local account on this forum instead.

                      Don't get me wrong, the UI problems are very difficult to get right. But I think they're more important than documentation. When it Just Works, people will grok it and documentation/explanation won't be needed.

                      julian@community.nodebb.orgJ This user is from outside of this forum
                      julian@community.nodebb.orgJ This user is from outside of this forum
                      julian@community.nodebb.org
                      wrote on last edited by
                      #25

                      @caesar that's concerning, can you link me to the posts with broken html in your Mastodon account?

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                      • caesar@community.nodebb.orgC This user is from outside of this forum
                        caesar@community.nodebb.orgC This user is from outside of this forum
                        caesar@community.nodebb.org
                        wrote on last edited by
                        #26

                        @julian Here's the one I saw today: https://indieweb.social/@omega@community.nodebb.org/113101718634936122

                        However, I now see that the broken HTML appears in the original post on this forum, so it's not a federation problem. Apologies for the 'false alarm' on that aspect. I've definitely seen broken formatting before, but haven't clicked through to check where the issue was. I'll keep an eye out for it again.

                        That said, my point was mainly about the difficulty of actually working out how to interact with posts from a different instance (especially one running different software), rather than about the actual content of the federated messages.

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                        • omega@community.nodebb.orgO This user is from outside of this forum
                          omega@community.nodebb.orgO This user is from outside of this forum
                          omega@community.nodebb.org
                          wrote on last edited by
                          #27

                          @caesar Yep that's it in a nutshell, nailed it, when it hits the "it just works" moment, this affords intuitive mass adoption

                          0b18df20-c023-424f-a51a-1578a4884b7c-image.png

                          Getting to that point is filled with blood sweat and tears.

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                          • eeeee@community.nodebb.orgE This user is from outside of this forum
                            eeeee@community.nodebb.orgE This user is from outside of this forum
                            eeeee@community.nodebb.org
                            wrote on last edited by
                            #28

                            Good points, and want to add, as credit to @julian , what he's building is complex.
                            Not many developers could do it. 👍

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                            • julian@community.nodebb.orgJ This user is from outside of this forum
                              julian@community.nodebb.orgJ This user is from outside of this forum
                              julian@community.nodebb.org
                              wrote on last edited by
                              #29

                              @caesar okay, how about the permalink issue? Can you show me the link you tried to paste into Mastodon? That definitely should work. That's a fairly standard flow (which is already janky, and can be improved)

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                              • caesar@community.nodebb.orgC This user is from outside of this forum
                                caesar@community.nodebb.orgC This user is from outside of this forum
                                caesar@community.nodebb.org
                                wrote on last edited by
                                #30

                                @julian it was this one: https://socialhub.activitypub.rocks/t/explaining-the-fediverse-is-a-hard-problem/4462/7
                                It's a Discourse post (and thus problem) rather than a NodeBB one, but it illustrates the point of the general jankiness of inter-platform interaction on the fediverse: if I copy the permalink of your post above into my Mastodon instance, it finds it and I can reply, but if I copy the permalink of a Discourse post from the same thread, it doesn't work.

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                                • caesar@community.nodebb.orgC This user is from outside of this forum
                                  caesar@community.nodebb.orgC This user is from outside of this forum
                                  caesar@community.nodebb.org
                                  wrote on last edited by
                                  #31

                                  @eeeee Absolutely, and @julian has my deepest respect for that. Like I mentioned, the UI for inter-platform interactions is definitely a really tricky problem to solve in an intuitive way, and I don't think any Fediverse platform has managed it yet. (I'm very interested in this because I'm starting to consider similar issues as they relate to the Fediverse implementation in Forgejo.)

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                                  • caesar@community.nodebb.orgC This user is from outside of this forum
                                    caesar@community.nodebb.orgC This user is from outside of this forum
                                    caesar@community.nodebb.org
                                    wrote on last edited by
                                    #32

                                    @julian sorry to multi-post but I forgot to say: although I can find your post from my Mastodon account and reply to it, I still haven't worked out how I would do the reverse from here. In fact I'm not sure if I can follow a Mastodon account (or perhaps more usefully, a Discourse or Lemmy topic or even a topic or account on a different NodeBB instance) from a NodeBB account at all, is that possible yet?

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                                    • eeeee@community.nodebb.orgE This user is from outside of this forum
                                      eeeee@community.nodebb.orgE This user is from outside of this forum
                                      eeeee@community.nodebb.org
                                      wrote on last edited by
                                      #33

                                      @caesar the Discourse link you posted raises another issue.
                                      Its a similar thread to this one, but it has additional posters, and any edits made in my posts arent reflected.
                                      So these conversations arent fully federated when there are some posts in that thread missing from this one.
                                      Out of interest @Omega, did you start your post on Discourse or on this site?

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                                      • eeeee@community.nodebb.orgE This user is from outside of this forum
                                        eeeee@community.nodebb.orgE This user is from outside of this forum
                                        eeeee@community.nodebb.org
                                        wrote on last edited by
                                        #34

                                        As an example as the disconnect between the thread on Nodebb and Discourse, @bumblefudge@socialhub.activitypub.rocks bumblefudge's post is missing from nodebb sites thread.
                                        1000025058.jpg

                                        Is the goal to duplicate all posts in all places so they stay in sync?

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                                        • caesar@indieweb.socialC This user is from outside of this forum
                                          caesar@indieweb.socialC This user is from outside of this forum
                                          caesar@indieweb.social
                                          wrote on last edited by
                                          #35

                                          @eeeee The lack of complete federation is another very good point that makes federation less-than-intuitive. From my Mastodon instance the situation is worse, none of @bumblefudge posts nor any others from SocailHub appear in the thread. (See https://indieweb.social/@julian@community.nodebb.org/112972609579702339)

                                          caesar@indieweb.socialC 1 Reply Last reply
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