I have deeply mixed feelings about #ActivityPub's adoption of JSON-LD, as someone who's spent way too long dealing with it while building #Fedify.
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hm, we really need to differentiate between users responsibility and dev responsibility.
Not sure if Hong saw the draft about the AP kv thing, it supports either JSON-LD fields _or_ as:attachment / as:context …
wtf do I want to say.user story:
We are working on 2 major and 3 projects fulltime which is
- federation of wikibase / wikidata
- federation of Public Broadcasters https://www.publicmediaalliance.org/public-broadcasters-create-public-spaces-incubator/
and these https://codeberg.org/Menschys/fedi-codebaseLet's say we want to federate a Country, then all the knowledge is sent in `attachment` with the fully qualified qikidata url in `context` [as:context - not @context ! - this is so confusing :)]
For example the according entries from the PressFreedomIndex `collection` (co-founder of freelens here
But anyway, the idea about having
"wd": "https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Special:EntityData/",
"wdt": "https://www.wikidata.org/prop/direct/" in the `@context` was that any user can consume and federate wikibase
incl.
🧵 1/2 -
hm, we really need to differentiate between users responsibility and dev responsibility.
Not sure if Hong saw the draft about the AP kv thing, it supports either JSON-LD fields _or_ as:attachment / as:context …
wtf do I want to say.user story:
We are working on 2 major and 3 projects fulltime which is
- federation of wikibase / wikidata
- federation of Public Broadcasters https://www.publicmediaalliance.org/public-broadcasters-create-public-spaces-incubator/
and these https://codeberg.org/Menschys/fedi-codebaseLet's say we want to federate a Country, then all the knowledge is sent in `attachment` with the fully qualified qikidata url in `context` [as:context - not @context ! - this is so confusing :)]
For example the according entries from the PressFreedomIndex `collection` (co-founder of freelens hereBut anyway, the idea about having
"wd": "https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Special:EntityData/",
"wdt": "https://www.wikidata.org/prop/direct/" in the `@context` was that any user can consume and federate wikibase
incl.
🧵 1/2incl.
- the properties in all the languages of the world
- the knowledge of the world in all the languages
- the wikidata relations and qualified statements including the nameMap etc. and all the urls to all wikiprojects incl. their languages and knowledgeHow else could I say to other softwares if they want all users qualified data, use wikidata vocabulary?
wikipedia, wikidata, EBU, Public Broadcasters, taxi data is _all_ JSON-LD … -
incl.
- the properties in all the languages of the world
- the knowledge of the world in all the languages
- the wikidata relations and qualified statements including the nameMap etc. and all the urls to all wikiprojects incl. their languages and knowledgeHow else could I say to other softwares if they want all users qualified data, use wikidata vocabulary?
wikipedia, wikidata, EBU, Public Broadcasters, taxi data is _all_ JSON-LD …@sl007 @hongminhee @julian i feel like you're falling into a trap i've seen a lot around AP spaces: just because the data can be contorted to represent something does not mean software will interpret it as such.
any software who wants to support wikidata statements and relations will have to go out of their way to implement that manually with or without json-ld in the mix, and interoperability between those software will have to specify how that works. and in your specification you can indeed make it so Simply Linking to the wikidata json-ld (which i don't believe it provides out of the box, it does for xml, turtle, and n-triples, if we're talking about rdf. if not, their bespoke json format is just as authoritative) can work (but i'd say using the Qxxx and Pxx IDs and letting the software figure out how to access it would be better!)
if you have the dream of making an as:Note and having it's as:attributedTo be the wikidata entity for alan turing... sorry, nobody other than maybe your own software will even attempt interpreting that -
@sl007 @hongminhee @julian i feel like you're falling into a trap i've seen a lot around AP spaces: just because the data can be contorted to represent something does not mean software will interpret it as such.
any software who wants to support wikidata statements and relations will have to go out of their way to implement that manually with or without json-ld in the mix, and interoperability between those software will have to specify how that works. and in your specification you can indeed make it so Simply Linking to the wikidata json-ld (which i don't believe it provides out of the box, it does for xml, turtle, and n-triples, if we're talking about rdf. if not, their bespoke json format is just as authoritative) can work (but i'd say using the Qxxx and Pxx IDs and letting the software figure out how to access it would be better!)
if you have the dream of making an as:Note and having it's as:attributedTo be the wikidata entity for alan turing... sorry, nobody other than maybe your own software will even attempt interpreting that@hongminhee @sl007 @julian attempting to support this kind of "data contortion" (i made this up and prolly isnt the right way to describe this) would rapidly balloon the scope of every fedi software ever. i don't believe anyone would want to develop for such ecosystem
a similar example i saw was someone attempting to explain how you can partially inline an as:object you as:Like'd in order to specify you only liked that past version of it and if it changed your like shouldn't count. without describing this exact scenario i don't believe any software, json-ld capable or not, would interpret that Like as such. same thing with the long-form text FEP which attempts to support non-activitypub authors -
@sl007 @hongminhee @julian i feel like you're falling into a trap i've seen a lot around AP spaces: just because the data can be contorted to represent something does not mean software will interpret it as such.
any software who wants to support wikidata statements and relations will have to go out of their way to implement that manually with or without json-ld in the mix, and interoperability between those software will have to specify how that works. and in your specification you can indeed make it so Simply Linking to the wikidata json-ld (which i don't believe it provides out of the box, it does for xml, turtle, and n-triples, if we're talking about rdf. if not, their bespoke json format is just as authoritative) can work (but i'd say using the Qxxx and Pxx IDs and letting the software figure out how to access it would be better!)
if you have the dream of making an as:Note and having it's as:attributedTo be the wikidata entity for alan turing... sorry, nobody other than maybe your own software will even attempt interpreting thatah, no - that is a misunderstanding!
Anyone can feel free to represent the texts only and the user at least "knows" it.
But the thing for Public Broadcasters means 47mio. users in DE alone and given the unified codebase for the 5 projects _these_ softwares will interpret it.
It does JSON-LD you could just check by asking for any JSON-LD e.g. Q1055 (Hamburg) - it is content-negotiation.
The taxiteam software is funded by the German yellow cabs - the official ones (!) the codename is FCKUBR
and I have no doubt about adoption fortunately.Maybe we can work out better examples …
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@hongminhee @sl007 @julian attempting to support this kind of "data contortion" (i made this up and prolly isnt the right way to describe this) would rapidly balloon the scope of every fedi software ever. i don't believe anyone would want to develop for such ecosystem
a similar example i saw was someone attempting to explain how you can partially inline an as:object you as:Like'd in order to specify you only liked that past version of it and if it changed your like shouldn't count. without describing this exact scenario i don't believe any software, json-ld capable or not, would interpret that Like as such. same thing with the long-form text FEP which attempts to support non-activitypub authorsit is just damned simple, your as: Client can do so much by asking wikidata, OSM, federated geocoding and not our system. When you use a property for the first time, the client can cache its names in the languages of the user etc.
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it is just damned simple, your as: Client can do so much by asking wikidata, OSM, federated geocoding and not our system. When you use a property for the first time, the client can cache its names in the languages of the user etc.
@sl007 @hongminhee @julian i genuinely can't see where json-ld is relevant here. if your client wants to support wikidata and OSM then it can do that with or without json-ld being involved. you are going to have to document how this integration works anyhow if you want anyone else to do so -
@hongminhee @sl007 @julian attempting to support this kind of "data contortion" (i made this up and prolly isnt the right way to describe this) would rapidly balloon the scope of every fedi software ever. i don't believe anyone would want to develop for such ecosystem
a similar example i saw was someone attempting to explain how you can partially inline an as:object you as:Like'd in order to specify you only liked that past version of it and if it changed your like shouldn't count. without describing this exact scenario i don't believe any software, json-ld capable or not, would interpret that Like as such. same thing with the long-form text FEP which attempts to support non-activitypub authorsjust btw, we had many W3C Social CG meetings about the importance and how to use the as:context property - not the JSON-LD @context and we all agreed.
About 30-40 devs attended.
Between 2016 and 2024 I attended basically any meeting. I felt that using wikidata urls in as:context was nice for anyone. -
@sl007 @hongminhee @julian i genuinely can't see where json-ld is relevant here. if your client wants to support wikidata and OSM then it can do that with or without json-ld being involved. you are going to have to document how this integration works anyhow if you want anyone else to do so
if I see wd: in lets say 3 of 12 AP software, I know tha I can give the user wikibase support.
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if I see wd: in lets say 3 of 12 AP software, I know tha I can give the user wikibase support.
anyway, if you like RDF and `content` is html how about RDFa ?
For us it would work similar. If we have any "convention" before we stop writing it might save time of rewriting -
just btw, we had many W3C Social CG meetings about the importance and how to use the as:context property - not the JSON-LD @context and we all agreed.
About 30-40 devs attended.
Between 2016 and 2024 I attended basically any meeting. I felt that using wikidata urls in as:context was nice for anyone.@sl007@digitalcourage.social eh? You use
context?ForumWG decided to use context to represent threads in threadiverse software (and Mastodon too, now).
Just FYI.
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@sl007@digitalcourage.social eh? You use
context?ForumWG decided to use context to represent threads in threadiverse software (and Mastodon too, now).
Just FYI.
hm, strange. I would really not ignore all the official ActivityPub meetings between 2016 and 2014
Maybe it would be worth to read the W3C minutes of SocialCG 2019 ff
Think, it _should_ have been 2019 or 2021 cause 2021 it wasn't on the "waitlist" anymore :https://socialhub.activitypub.rocks/t/2021-01-09-socialcg-meeting-fep/1246But:
It dates back to 2020 https://socialhub.activitypub.rocks/t/context-vs-conversation/578 and after mastodon and pleroma agreed to the us , the 2 Social CG meetings are linked by me in the thread.
Then we had the 2020 brilliant Conf.So, well, we use it for ActivityPub spec says and what was decided there by all …
mastodon is _not_ able to introduce breaking changes to a W3C standard
Just FYI. -
hm, strange. I would really not ignore all the official ActivityPub meetings between 2016 and 2014
Maybe it would be worth to read the W3C minutes of SocialCG 2019 ff
Think, it _should_ have been 2019 or 2021 cause 2021 it wasn't on the "waitlist" anymore :https://socialhub.activitypub.rocks/t/2021-01-09-socialcg-meeting-fep/1246But:
It dates back to 2020 https://socialhub.activitypub.rocks/t/context-vs-conversation/578 and after mastodon and pleroma agreed to the us , the 2 Social CG meetings are linked by me in the thread.
Then we had the 2020 brilliant Conf.So, well, we use it for ActivityPub spec says and what was decided there by all …
mastodon is _not_ able to introduce breaking changes to a W3C standard
Just FYI.Can you specify "threadiverse" software cause like all properties which are not marked as "functional" in the ActivityPub Spec, `context` is an Array and I do not see any problem …
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Can you specify "threadiverse" software cause like all properties which are not marked as "functional" in the ActivityPub Spec, `context` is an Array and I do not see any problem …
^ what I mean :
"context": [
"https://threadiversesoftware.example.org/thread/123",
"https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Special:EntityData/Q64 "
];then says:
"Hi machine, I am in the context of thread 123 about Berlin." -
@sl007@digitalcourage.social eh? You use
context?ForumWG decided to use context to represent threads in threadiverse software (and Mastodon too, now).
Just FYI.
Is there a W3C minutes or kind of a meeting-protocol|spec. about this use of context?
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Is there a W3C minutes or kind of a meeting-protocol|spec. about this use of context?
@sl007@digitalcourage.social FEPs 7888 and f228 details the use of
contextand one use case of it, to backfill conversations. -
@sl007@digitalcourage.social FEPs 7888 and f228 details the use of
contextand one use case of it, to backfill conversations.well, but that is _exactly_ the same of the official Social CG meetings !
"This context property is the URL of the NodeBB topic."
vs.
"The context property should be used to identify the context in which the object appears in, form a common topic or group content. This can be a well known JSON-LD vocabulary or any ActivityPub Object useful for the implementation."
vs
https://www.w3.org/TR/activitystreams-vocabulary/#dfn-context :„Identifies the context within which the object exists or an activity was performed.
The notion of "context" used is intentionally vague. The intended function is to serve as a means of grouping objects and activities that share a common originating context or purpose. An example could be all activities relating to a common project or event. “and I am glad cause, as said
"context": [
"https://threadiversesoftware.example.org/thread/123",
"https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Special:EntityData/Q64 "
];
then says:
"Hi machine, I am in the context of thread 123 about Berlin."and then
🧵 1/2
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well, but that is _exactly_ the same of the official Social CG meetings !
"This context property is the URL of the NodeBB topic."
vs.
"The context property should be used to identify the context in which the object appears in, form a common topic or group content. This can be a well known JSON-LD vocabulary or any ActivityPub Object useful for the implementation."
vs
https://www.w3.org/TR/activitystreams-vocabulary/#dfn-context :„Identifies the context within which the object exists or an activity was performed.
The notion of "context" used is intentionally vague. The intended function is to serve as a means of grouping objects and activities that share a common originating context or purpose. An example could be all activities relating to a common project or event. “and I am glad cause, as said
"context": [
"https://threadiversesoftware.example.org/thread/123",
"https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Special:EntityData/Q64 "
];
then says:
"Hi machine, I am in the context of thread 123 about Berlin."and then
🧵 1/2
and then
1) machine gets thread (cause is JSON-LD by known/allowed `generator`)
2) machine fetches or gets cached wikidata entry about Berlin and displays the card (kind of "infobox" then).
.. from the named "SpecialEntitiyData" of wikidata which is JSON-LD as well.
3) machine is happyapart from our tools, I need to credit Max Lath who is doing inventaire, the federated book library and did a lot of previous work for wiki JSON-LD like the wonderful https://github.com/maxlath/wikibase-sdk
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and then
1) machine gets thread (cause is JSON-LD by known/allowed `generator`)
2) machine fetches or gets cached wikidata entry about Berlin and displays the card (kind of "infobox" then).
.. from the named "SpecialEntitiyData" of wikidata which is JSON-LD as well.
3) machine is happyapart from our tools, I need to credit Max Lath who is doing inventaire, the federated book library and did a lot of previous work for wiki JSON-LD like the wonderful https://github.com/maxlath/wikibase-sdk
PS - just btw;
about inventaire I am sharing currently photobooks for free rent in Dortmund, Germany
https://inventaire.io/users/sl007
they have also nice use for JSON-LD re. books /authors etc. https://data.inventaire.io/ like so many software in fedi.
If you ask the redaktor Service Actor for Place (`Question`) to find you a waffle restaurant in Amsterdam serving blue syrup near a train station then we do also use SPARQL like them - without the AI bullshit - just cause millions of friendly humans contributing to wd and OSM … -
@kopper @hongminhee As the person probably most responsible for making sure json-ld stayed in the spec (two reasons: because it was the only extensibility answer we had, and because we were trying hard to retain interoperability with the linked data people, which ultimately did not matter), I agree with you. I do ultimately regret not having a simpler solution than json-ld, especially because it greatly hurt our ability to sign messages, which has considerable effect on the ecosystem.
Mea culpa
![😕](https://bb.devnull.land/assets/plugins/nodebb-plugin-emoji/emoji/android/1f615.png?v=9dbe82cea75 ":\")
I do think it's fixable. I'd be interested in joining a conversation about how to fix it.
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