Pre-Alpha ActivityPub-related bug reports
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@julian Another thing that Hubzilla does, mostly to remain compatible with platforms that don't understand forums, is have the forum redistribute all of the posts in the thread.
So, when you comment on a post, your app only sends it to the Hubzilla forum, and then the forum looks and sees who is following that thread or who is a member of the forum, and redistributes a copy of the post to everyone who is supposed to get it.
So as long as you are following that thread or are a member of that forum, you get a copy of all of the new messages. (And if you are using Zot protocol, it fetches all of the recent posts when you first follow the forum, which gives you complete threads for recent conversations.)
And one reason why I may be missing some of the posts in this thread is that I am following you (and some others) and not the forum itself.
How do I follow this forum or thread specifically?@scott@authorship.studio said in Pre-Alpha ActivityPub-related bug reports:
I am not sure if there is a way to pull in ActivityPub.
No standard ways, at present, but of course, you can always do an S2S call for the individual objects themselves. The problem is, how do you get the whole thread (which as you mention above, Mastodon can't even support at present). Hell, how do you even get the authoritative source besides traversing up the entire reply chain?
I often feel like I am pushing against the "ActivityPub zeitgeist" of sorts, because I am plainly advocating for a thoughtfully designed pull-based mechanism for backfill purposes, but at least among those I've talked to, I'm not hearing any pushback.
I am not sure how to implement this in ActivityPub, but in the Zot protocol, Hubzilla actually fetches the entire thread from the authoritative source.
In NodeBB, each object references a
context, which is anOrderedCollectionof other objects. That context is the authoritative source (or at least, as authoritative as NodeBB can determine).I'm planning a survey on
contextusage, to see whether other implementors use it at all, and how. -
@scott@authorship.studio said in Pre-Alpha ActivityPub-related bug reports:
I am not sure if there is a way to pull in ActivityPub.
No standard ways, at present, but of course, you can always do an S2S call for the individual objects themselves. The problem is, how do you get the whole thread (which as you mention above, Mastodon can't even support at present). Hell, how do you even get the authoritative source besides traversing up the entire reply chain?
I often feel like I am pushing against the "ActivityPub zeitgeist" of sorts, because I am plainly advocating for a thoughtfully designed pull-based mechanism for backfill purposes, but at least among those I've talked to, I'm not hearing any pushback.
I am not sure how to implement this in ActivityPub, but in the Zot protocol, Hubzilla actually fetches the entire thread from the authoritative source.
In NodeBB, each object references a
context, which is anOrderedCollectionof other objects. That context is the authoritative source (or at least, as authoritative as NodeBB can determine).I'm planning a survey on
contextusage, to see whether other implementors use it at all, and how.@julian I'm maybe not seeing the right post, but on the "duplicate content" issue, if you've an unauthenticated user viewing a federated post or account, the best practice is to provide an intersitual saying “This post wasn't made it, click to view the original post”
This is what it looks like in 4.3 for mastodon: https://github.com/mastodon/mastodon/pull/27792
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@julian I'm maybe not seeing the right post, but on the "duplicate content" issue, if you've an unauthenticated user viewing a federated post or account, the best practice is to provide an intersitual saying “This post wasn't made it, click to view the original post”
This is what it looks like in 4.3 for mastodon: https://github.com/mastodon/mastodon/pull/27792
@julian Why? because the unauthenticated user should not be able to view federated content, since this may make you susceptible to public cache poisoning attacks, where a third-party could make you publicly display CSAM content, and then it looks like you're displaying it first-party and hosting CSAM to your hosting company, who takes your server down immediately and/or reports to LEO.
We've already seen this attack used to take down fediverse servers.
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@scott@authorship.studio said in Pre-Alpha ActivityPub-related bug reports:
I am not sure if there is a way to pull in ActivityPub.
No standard ways, at present, but of course, you can always do an S2S call for the individual objects themselves. The problem is, how do you get the whole thread (which as you mention above, Mastodon can't even support at present). Hell, how do you even get the authoritative source besides traversing up the entire reply chain?
I often feel like I am pushing against the "ActivityPub zeitgeist" of sorts, because I am plainly advocating for a thoughtfully designed pull-based mechanism for backfill purposes, but at least among those I've talked to, I'm not hearing any pushback.
I am not sure how to implement this in ActivityPub, but in the Zot protocol, Hubzilla actually fetches the entire thread from the authoritative source.
In NodeBB, each object references a
context, which is anOrderedCollectionof other objects. That context is the authoritative source (or at least, as authoritative as NodeBB can determine).I'm planning a survey on
contextusage, to see whether other implementors use it at all, and how.@julianI often feel like I am pushing against the "ActivityPub zeitgeist" of sorts, because I am plainly advocating for a thoughtfully designed pull-based mechanism for backfill purposes, but at least among those I've talked to, I'm not hearing any pushback.
Hubzilla and Friendica were one of the first platforms to implement forums (or more accurately "discussion groups" although the only difference is the UI). The biggest challenge at the time was that other platforms didn't (and most still don't) understand groups and group discussions.
When developing, they basically used the following tactics:
1. Implement full discussion group features within Hubzilla, and Friendica, respectively. People who use those platforms get the full experience and full feature set.
2. For platforms that don't have the same features, they implemented what they could. If other platforms don't support certain things, that is not our fault. But we still designed it so that it works with their platforms, mostly using workarounds. They could at least participate, even if they didn't get the full experience.
I think we need to take the same approach. We design it so that thread-based platforms (forums, discussion groups, Facebook-style social media, etc.) all can interact with a full set of features. For social media platforms that don't support threaded conversations, we just do "best effort" accepting the fact that their users will have a degraded experience because their software doesn't support the same features.
So, I would recommend that we create some method of backfilling a thread from the authoritative source (using a pull mechanism), and we advertise that this functionality is available via webfinger and as part of the meta data of the posts themselves. Platforms that don't know what that is will ignore it. Platforms that know what that is will use it.
ActivityPub seems to be a push only protocol, so we may need to make our own mini-pull protocol for this purpose. You can look at the Zot protocol that is part of Hubzilla as an example. I think the Nomad protocol that is part of Streams also does the same thing. Not sure about Friendica. But there is working code that already pulls the entire thread. -
@julian I'm maybe not seeing the right post, but on the "duplicate content" issue, if you've an unauthenticated user viewing a federated post or account, the best practice is to provide an intersitual saying “This post wasn't made it, click to view the original post”
This is what it looks like in 4.3 for mastodon: https://github.com/mastodon/mastodon/pull/27792
@Emelia
@julian
I don't think there really will be a duplicate content issue. Typically, copies of posts are delivered to people's private inbox, not reposted publicly on other websites. Unless someone is operating a relay or reposting other people's posts, all of the copies of the post that are sent over ActivityPub should be private. -
hi @julian , I wonder how search engines and SEO will work for federated posts? Let's say I published a post specific to forum-1 on forum-1, however since it is federated out, the same posts and topic can be found on 10+ more websites simultaneously... and let's assume forum-2 is higher ranked on search engines for some reasons...
when people are searching related keywords on search engines, will they be directed to forum-1? or forum-2, namely the forum that search engine favors/ranked higher?
@crazycells Search engines would not see them. ActivityPub basically serves as a notification mechanism, except it delivers the entire post to the follower's private inbox and they can reply back without visiting the forum. Forum posts and comments do not get republished publicly. -
@crazycells Search engines would not see them. ActivityPub basically serves as a notification mechanism, except it delivers the entire post to the follower's private inbox and they can reply back without visiting the forum. Forum posts and comments do not get republished publicly.scott:
Search engines would not see them.
This doesn't seem to be true.
The content of Julian's post at https://socialhub.activitypub.rocks/t/hi-julian-i-wonder-how-search-engines-and-seo-will/4135/12?u=stevebate is indexed with both socialhub and nodebb URLs.
Google SERP screenshot:
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I may regret creating this topic but here goes.
If you experience a bug or other unexpected behavior while using NodeBB and its related ActivityPub integration, please post it here so it can be tracked and resolved.
No formal process as of yet, and we're still at pre-alpha so expect many things to be broken or unavailable
@julian The URL of this topic is https://community.nodebb.org/topic/17867/pre-alpha-activitypub-related-bug-reports
When I make a request with AP Accept header, the server responds with aCollection. Technically, this is not wrong, but I think most people would expect a top-level post (Note / Article) when making such request -
@julian The URL of this topic is https://community.nodebb.org/topic/17867/pre-alpha-activitypub-related-bug-reports
When I make a request with AP Accept header, the server responds with aCollection. Technically, this is not wrong, but I think most people would expect a top-level post (Note / Article) when making such request@silverpill@mitra.social you're the first person to have noticed!
It's by design, but of course, can — and maybe should — change. It's part of @trwnh@mastodon.social's FEP-7888 and its concept of a resolvable collection.
Mapping the topic URL to the top post (or perhaps a redirect to it) would ensure compatibility with Mastodon, but I am unsure of whether that is the best path forward.
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@silverpill@mitra.social you're the first person to have noticed!
It's by design, but of course, can — and maybe should — change. It's part of @trwnh@mastodon.social's FEP-7888 and its concept of a resolvable collection.
Mapping the topic URL to the top post (or perhaps a redirect to it) would ensure compatibility with Mastodon, but I am unsure of whether that is the best path forward.
@julian @silverpill why would anyone expect a Note/Article when fetching the URL for an entire thread/topic?
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@julian @silverpill why would anyone expect a Note/Article when fetching the URL for an entire thread/topic?
@trwnh @julian @silverpill I'd only expect a Note/Article when explicitly requesting the first post in a thread/topic, not when fetching the topic itself
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@trwnh @julian @silverpill I'd only expect a Note/Article when explicitly requesting the first post in a thread/topic, not when fetching the topic itself
@thisismissem@hachyderm.io @trwnh@mastodon.social that was my thought as well, and why NodeBB currently responds as it does.
Ideally it could be both an Article and a Collection, but now we're really committing to incompatibility there lol
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@thisismissem@hachyderm.io @trwnh@mastodon.social that was my thought as well, and why NodeBB currently responds as it does.
Ideally it could be both an Article and a Collection, but now we're really committing to incompatibility there lol
@julian @trwnh @silverpill I mean... theoretically ActivityPub allows for multi-typed objects due to json-ld
But will anyone understand that correctly? No idea.
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@julian @trwnh @silverpill I mean... theoretically ActivityPub allows for multi-typed objects due to json-ld
But will anyone understand that correctly? No idea.
@thisismissem @julian @silverpill you could generate a document that is both an Article and a Collection but i'm gonna go out on a limb and say that this is probably *not* what you want. it's a thread. a thread is a Collection of posts. it's already "ideal" to represent it as a Collection and not an Article.
i suspect the source of confusion is that most other projects don't have threads/topics, they have reply trees which they show below the "top level" post. The URL there is for the post.
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@julian @silverpill why would anyone expect a Note/Article when fetching the URL for an entire thread/topic?
@trwnh @julian Because it is not clear how client should display this collection. Searching for URL is a common UI pattern: user expects to see a post or a profile as a result (this is not unique to Mastodon).
Server can attempt to fetch the first item in a collection, but NodeBB's FEP-7888 collection doesn't identify itself as a "thread". It has "OrderedCollectionPage" type and properties that many other collections also have
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@trwnh @julian Because it is not clear how client should display this collection. Searching for URL is a common UI pattern: user expects to see a post or a profile as a result (this is not unique to Mastodon).
Server can attempt to fetch the first item in a collection, but NodeBB's FEP-7888 collection doesn't identify itself as a "thread". It has "OrderedCollectionPage" type and properties that many other collections also have
@silverpill@mitra.social said:
NodeBB's FEP-7888 collection doesn't identify itself as a "thread".
That's because I am not aware of a clear way to signal that my collection is a thread.
Lemmy uses
as:Page, which is far too generic of an object type to signal as a thread. Mastodon doesn't even have an external concept of a conversation (oStatus conversation notwithstanding) -
@julian The URL of this topic is https://community.nodebb.org/topic/17867/pre-alpha-activitypub-related-bug-reports
When I make a request with AP Accept header, the server responds with aCollection. Technically, this is not wrong, but I think most people would expect a top-level post (Note / Article) when making such request@julian Another report: when NodeBB generates an
Announce(Create)activity, the ID ofAnnouncehas wrong origin. Here's an example:{ "@context": "https://www.w3.org/ns/activitystreams", "actor": "https://community.nodebb.org/category/30", "id": "https://mitra.social/objects/01920059-5b7c-203f-fc4e-285ec442c032#activity/announce/1726582718443", "object": ... "type": "Announce" }ID indicates that activity has originated on my server, but this is not possible
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@trwnh @julian Because it is not clear how client should display this collection. Searching for URL is a common UI pattern: user expects to see a post or a profile as a result (this is not unique to Mastodon).
Server can attempt to fetch the first item in a collection, but NodeBB's FEP-7888 collection doesn't identify itself as a "thread". It has "OrderedCollectionPage" type and properties that many other collections also have
@silverpill @julian Searching for the URL should give you what that URL represents. If you want the post, search for the URL of the post specifically.
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@silverpill@mitra.social said:
NodeBB's FEP-7888 collection doesn't identify itself as a "thread".
That's because I am not aware of a clear way to signal that my collection is a thread.
Lemmy uses
as:Page, which is far too generic of an object type to signal as a thread. Mastodon doesn't even have an external concept of a conversation (oStatus conversation notwithstanding)@julian @silverpill We could define a dedicated type for Thread or Conversation or whatever you want to call "a Collection that contains only "post" objects", but it would still be a Collection as well. I think this was something I was considering for a FEP that I ended up never really writing because it felt unnecessary and also very premature. The general idea is to define some way to know what a Collection "contains" -- is it a Conversation or a MediaAlbum or whatever. The problem is taxonomy
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@julian @silverpill We could define a dedicated type for Thread or Conversation or whatever you want to call "a Collection that contains only "post" objects", but it would still be a Collection as well. I think this was something I was considering for a FEP that I ended up never really writing because it felt unnecessary and also very premature. The general idea is to define some way to know what a Collection "contains" -- is it a Conversation or a MediaAlbum or whatever. The problem is taxonomy
@julian @silverpill Really we need to take a step back and first define what a "post" object is. I'm tentatively leaning toward "any object that has content", but I'm sure there are plenty of edge cases I haven't accounted for that will pop up when thinking more deeply about the issue.
