With #HolosDiscover we checked multiple criteria before indexing: "indexable" enabled, account not locked, no #nobot or #noindex in bio, not in opted-out list, only public posts.
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@lexinova
We can't change how Mastodon presents those settings, but we had a page explaining how the service works and how to opt out per platform. We'll communicate even more clearly if the service comes back.Worth noting that this opt-in by default setting also allows Google to index fediverse profiles, except they don't check for consent at all. This is a much bigger issue that goes way beyond our project, which actually tries to do things the right way.
The fediverse is built app-centric, where people build their own particular app functionality and use cases and then try to get a reasonable amount of interoperability with other apps (or only with themself in some cases).
I think the general issue is that in building a consent mechanism an app should not depend on consent mechanisms of other apps.
The fact that Mastodon does something with Indexable flag, and provides config settings in the UI is pure app-specific and not protocol functionality, not a native capability of the social network that can be relied upon.
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With #HolosDiscover we checked multiple criteria before indexing: "indexable" enabled, account not locked, no #nobot or #noindex in bio, not in opted-out list, only public posts. Every deletion, edit or block was processed instantly via #ActivityPub.
Google uses that same "indexable" flag but ignores everything else, keeps deleted content cached for weeks.
We shut it down after pushback. Was that the right call? Don't hesitate to share, this concerns the whole Fediverse.@apps
To be honest, I didn't understand any of what you wrote. Is there a page explaining the issue? -
With #HolosDiscover we checked multiple criteria before indexing: "indexable" enabled, account not locked, no #nobot or #noindex in bio, not in opted-out list, only public posts. Every deletion, edit or block was processed instantly via #ActivityPub.
Google uses that same "indexable" flag but ignores everything else, keeps deleted content cached for weeks.
We shut it down after pushback. Was that the right call? Don't hesitate to share, this concerns the whole Fediverse.So this dead horse flinched again
"With #HolosDiscover we checked multiple criteria before indexing: "indexable" enabled, account not locked, no #nobot or #noindex in bio, not in opted-out list, only public posts."
I'll copy-pasta with only slight edits:
My entire point (all the noise notwithstanding) focused on
Default opt-in versus default opt-out
This is an agent --> recipient transaction
Default opt-in: the recipient is opted into (and receives) the agent's action whether the recipient --> knows of <-- the action or not
Default opt-out: the recipient is opted out of (and cannot receive) the action whether the recipient --> knows of <-- the action or not
Neither default opt-in nor default opt-out have any logical meaning if
--> THE RECIPIENT DOES NOT KNOW OF THE AGENT <--
in advance
There was no mechanism for prior notification *before* indexing
People would have had to stumble on what you're doing, by how, exactly?
How dose the recipient learn of what you've done *before* you do it?
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So this dead horse flinched again
"With #HolosDiscover we checked multiple criteria before indexing: "indexable" enabled, account not locked, no #nobot or #noindex in bio, not in opted-out list, only public posts."
I'll copy-pasta with only slight edits:
My entire point (all the noise notwithstanding) focused on
Default opt-in versus default opt-out
This is an agent --> recipient transaction
Default opt-in: the recipient is opted into (and receives) the agent's action whether the recipient --> knows of <-- the action or not
Default opt-out: the recipient is opted out of (and cannot receive) the action whether the recipient --> knows of <-- the action or not
Neither default opt-in nor default opt-out have any logical meaning if
--> THE RECIPIENT DOES NOT KNOW OF THE AGENT <--
in advance
There was no mechanism for prior notification *before* indexing
People would have had to stumble on what you're doing, by how, exactly?
How dose the recipient learn of what you've done *before* you do it?
@FinchHaven @apps so you would like to be asked everytime a search engine wants to index your profile? That's like the cookie popups, I will just stop reading them at some point.
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@FinchHaven @apps so you would like to be asked everytime a search engine wants to index your profile? That's like the cookie popups, I will just stop reading them at some point.
This is the old, worn out Fediverse "Well anybody can search the Internet any time they want to so why do you care?"
Which 1) most people cannot, lacking the technical expertise, and 2) most people don't want to have happen to them anyway
<snip>
cc @apps
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This is the old, worn out Fediverse "Well anybody can search the Internet any time they want to so why do you care?"
Which 1) most people cannot, lacking the technical expertise, and 2) most people don't want to have happen to them anyway
<snip>
cc @apps
@FinchHaven @apps huh, that's not what I meant
The way I understood you, is that opt-in and opt-out don't work because the user doesn't know what service wants to do what with their profile.
Which to me sounded like you want to get a notification and decide manually everytime a service wants to index your profile. Did I get that wrong? -
@FinchHaven @apps huh, that's not what I meant
The way I understood you, is that opt-in and opt-out don't work because the user doesn't know what service wants to do what with their profile.
Which to me sounded like you want to get a notification and decide manually everytime a service wants to index your profile. Did I get that wrong?"The way I understood you, is that opt-in and opt-out don't work because the user doesn't know what service wants to do what with their profile."
My point was, the user doesn't even *know* the service exists when they''ve been opted-in and weird stuff starts happening
"Why are these people suddenly Liking and Boosting and Replying to my posts? I don't Follow them, they don't Follow me, they didn't use any hashtags I Follow and yet they're popping up in my Home Feed?"
They're already *using* a service you've been opted in to, without your knowing you've been opted in because you had no clue the service existed until *after* weird stuff happens in your Home feed
It's happened before
Byron Miller (supernovae @ Universeodon) and his famous reply "Well, in the four months of having (our) full-text search we haven't heard from anyone who has suffered personal harm because of our search."
That was good to know, anyway
BTW the link to that quote 404s because Byron left for Bluesky
cc @apps
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"The way I understood you, is that opt-in and opt-out don't work because the user doesn't know what service wants to do what with their profile."
My point was, the user doesn't even *know* the service exists when they''ve been opted-in and weird stuff starts happening
"Why are these people suddenly Liking and Boosting and Replying to my posts? I don't Follow them, they don't Follow me, they didn't use any hashtags I Follow and yet they're popping up in my Home Feed?"
They're already *using* a service you've been opted in to, without your knowing you've been opted in because you had no clue the service existed until *after* weird stuff happens in your Home feed
It's happened before
Byron Miller (supernovae @ Universeodon) and his famous reply "Well, in the four months of having (our) full-text search we haven't heard from anyone who has suffered personal harm because of our search."
That was good to know, anyway
BTW the link to that quote 404s because Byron left for Bluesky
cc @apps
"Which to me sounded like you want to get a notification and decide manually everytime a service wants to index your profile."
No. That won't work if I don't know what the service is and that it exists in the first place
The real point is that historically this has happened before, over the years, because people get opted-in to something they've never heard of, by default
"Which to me sounded like you want to get a notification and decide manually everytime a service wants to index your profile."
It's funny you mention this because Ryan "Bridgy" Barrett initially said he was going to send Mastodon people DMs which people (myself included) pointed out would not work, because most people have their DMs locked down
Again, here: https://github.com/snarfed/bridgy-fed/issues/880#issue-2136207725
cc @apps
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"Which to me sounded like you want to get a notification and decide manually everytime a service wants to index your profile."
No. That won't work if I don't know what the service is and that it exists in the first place
The real point is that historically this has happened before, over the years, because people get opted-in to something they've never heard of, by default
"Which to me sounded like you want to get a notification and decide manually everytime a service wants to index your profile."
It's funny you mention this because Ryan "Bridgy" Barrett initially said he was going to send Mastodon people DMs which people (myself included) pointed out would not work, because most people have their DMs locked down
Again, here: https://github.com/snarfed/bridgy-fed/issues/880#issue-2136207725
cc @apps
@FinchHaven @apps yea my point is that notifications wouldn't work. How do you envision indexing to be properly done then?
"No. That won't work if I don't know what the service is and that it exists in the first place"
They way in understood you, explanations of the service would be part of the notifications. -
@lutindiscret
We panicked quickly because things escalated beyond what we expected. But we still believe our approach was far more respectful than what's already happening: the same data is being exploited by others without users even knowing. At worst, we raised awareness.@apps @lutindiscret yeah, always make sure to check whether the screeching is coming from A Certain Subset of terminally toxic M*st*d*n users when evaluating "public pressure"
personally, I'd just block the usual suspects instances which always start this type of shit and move on, they're increasingly isolated nowadays anyway and don't have anywhere near the clout they wish they did.
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@mattesilver @apps for fediverse public != that allowing to be automatically taken for other app.
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T tag-activitypub@relay.fedi.buzz shared this topic
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