It might be too late for the Threadiverse...
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It was a rather sombering thread, that echoed quite a bit of what I've been saying about .ml, the Triad, general toxicity of their Tankie "ideology" for months now.
I know @ptz@dubvee.org was speaking of general toxicity, but the Triad is a huge chunk of it, the culture they create...festers it. They comprise the bulk of the hostility, I've personally seen it over and over and over again. All the "Just go back to Reddit" or "just another lib Redditor refugee" comments for someone that dared to have nuance.
Hell, I saw hex users fucking cheering .ee's shutdown because it was some sort of psyop/CIA/fed/lib/"They didn't perfectly agree with me" instance. They call feddit.org a "Nazi Zionist" instance for the crime....of not wanting to be arrested and complying with German law...
I haven't looked to see if they've started any "celebratory" posts about Dubvee yet and I also don't really want to, if they're there, I already know what they're going to say in it -_-
Unfortunately, I fear the problem was far worse than I thought.
Ptz speculated that the toxicity has "metastasized". And you know what? He might be right, it seemed to be a lot better off 2 years ago, now....now I feel we might be losing the battle against the toxicity and I don't think PieFed will be enough. Complacency has set in
My hope was that with enough instances defederating from .ml and the rest of the Triad, it would be a tad easier to take down toxic Tankies, trolls and their alts. But, few wanted to burn the bridge with the toxic main devs' instance and now it might be too late. (Cheers to @Illecors@lemmy.cafe and the lemmy.cafe instance, one of the few of note to actually defederate from the entire triad!)
Like ptz said and I fully agree with, this place started with promise 2 years ago, but it appears to be ultimately morphing into 4chan (or like I've been saying, Voat 2.0) after all
Oh well, I've got some thick ass skin so I'll probably be here till the end, till the last sane instance shuts down.
I'll see you there @dessalines@lemmy.ml
/Sadmemerant
Heck, maybe I'll do a hail Mary and start an instance on a custom fork of lemmy with "normie proof" onboarding while dumping a few hundred in ADs (Maybe even on Reddit itself, HA!). I'll flood this place with "normies" LMAO
In the linked post, I can definitely agree that a lot of people here seem to be arguing in bad faith, and Ive seen it from various instances, not just the tankie traid (although I won't deny they are a part of it). For myself, I dont know how to tell the "subtle" trolls apart from people who are really just misinformed. I dont like assuming everyone knows everything and is purposefully trying to get a rise out of me. I do know I sit and think before I post, and sometimes I'll write a post or a comment, and sit on it and end up deleting it because I feel it isnt worth having to interact with someone who could be trolling, but I feel like I still end up arguing with people who are as the OOP put it, arguing in bad faith, talking in absolutes, and calling for violence. I dont really know how to approach it because I do use reporting sometimes, although 9 times out of 10 it feels like nothing comes of it. Just a shitty situation.
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I'll repeat a few things I've been saying about this. To keep it
short:less verbose:What people call "toxicity" online relies heavily on irrationality, from the aggressor and/or the target. And politics raises the stakes of everything, so irrationality + political engagement is specially prone to generate catty behaviour, name calling, uncalled combativeness, and all that crap.
Now look at social media. You'll see irrationals infesting every platform. Reddit in special encourages it, and most lemmings are from Reddit.
Why this matters: because I believe people here are focusing too much on .ml and Hexbear, without noticing the problem would still persist without them.
Indeed, without ml hexbear and grad those irrationals would spread without reason to other instances, turning everything into a cesspool. And luckily we have the tools to not engage with them, block them or outright defed from their host.
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It was a rather sombering thread, that echoed quite a bit of what I've been saying about .ml, the Triad, general toxicity of their Tankie "ideology" for months now.
I know @ptz@dubvee.org was speaking of general toxicity, but the Triad is a huge chunk of it, the culture they create...festers it. They comprise the bulk of the hostility, I've personally seen it over and over and over again. All the "Just go back to Reddit" or "just another lib Redditor refugee" comments for someone that dared to have nuance.
Hell, I saw hex users fucking cheering .ee's shutdown because it was some sort of psyop/CIA/fed/lib/"They didn't perfectly agree with me" instance. They call feddit.org a "Nazi Zionist" instance for the crime....of not wanting to be arrested and complying with German law...
I haven't looked to see if they've started any "celebratory" posts about Dubvee yet and I also don't really want to, if they're there, I already know what they're going to say in it -_-
Unfortunately, I fear the problem was far worse than I thought.
Ptz speculated that the toxicity has "metastasized". And you know what? He might be right, it seemed to be a lot better off 2 years ago, now....now I feel we might be losing the battle against the toxicity and I don't think PieFed will be enough. Complacency has set in
My hope was that with enough instances defederating from .ml and the rest of the Triad, it would be a tad easier to take down toxic Tankies, trolls and their alts. But, few wanted to burn the bridge with the toxic main devs' instance and now it might be too late. (Cheers to @Illecors@lemmy.cafe and the lemmy.cafe instance, one of the few of note to actually defederate from the entire triad!)
Like ptz said and I fully agree with, this place started with promise 2 years ago, but it appears to be ultimately morphing into 4chan (or like I've been saying, Voat 2.0) after all
Oh well, I've got some thick ass skin so I'll probably be here till the end, till the last sane instance shuts down.
I'll see you there @dessalines@lemmy.ml
/Sadmemerant
Heck, maybe I'll do a hail Mary and start an instance on a custom fork of lemmy with "normie proof" onboarding while dumping a few hundred in ADs (Maybe even on Reddit itself, HA!). I'll flood this place with "normies" LMAO
They call feddit.org a "Nazi Zionist" instance for the crime....of not wanting to be arrested and complying with German law...
Yeah how dare we
And how dare we don't want needlessly endless drama that doesn't lead to anything.
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I think it is worth differentiating between dubvee and lemm.ee on this topic. Dubvee seems to have been shut down mostly for personal reasons, and IMHO if the timing would have not overlapped with the lemm.ee shut down people would just consider it part of the normal churn of smaller instances coming and going.
On the other hand, lemm.ee was a bit of a special case. From the very beginning they invited a lot of "defederation is bad" type of people to their instance and were also one of the few larger instances that decided to keep federating with hexbear despite having first hand experience with their toxicity. So to a large extend they set themselves up to alot of drama
In addition their technical setup was probably a bit overengineered, adding to the admin workload.As an instance admin myself, I can't say that things are overly stressful if you defederate the right instances and quickly ban alts of known troublemakers.
However, I agree that the feddit.org witchhunt was very toxic, and as a moderator of /c/europe@feddit.org I was also directly targeted. But it was clearly a very small number of people that instigated most of it. Discounting alts and throwaways it was probably a single digit number of people doing 95% of the harm.
Uh, I'm not sure if you read a different thread, but in his formal shutdown thread in !announcements@dubvee.org he was quite clear about it being about fighting against the toxicity. He basically got to a good point, but because of the .ee wake he had to start over.
But yes .ee was a special case, it was sad especially being the second largest instance. But a second instance shutdown in a month also citing burnout and toxicity is a red flag.
Now I'm worried if next week SJW or slrpnk is going to announce their shutdown due to toxicity
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I guess I've been here 2 years too did lemmy start out tankie or was it due to the migration? The lsc sub on reddit was a full on echo chamber
The legend goes that dessalines and Nutomic were unpopular and getting bans on Reddit and then set off to make Lemmy like 5-6 years ago to get away from Reddit
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I'll repeat a few things I've been saying about this. To keep it
short:less verbose:What people call "toxicity" online relies heavily on irrationality, from the aggressor and/or the target. And politics raises the stakes of everything, so irrationality + political engagement is specially prone to generate catty behaviour, name calling, uncalled combativeness, and all that crap.
Now look at social media. You'll see irrationals infesting every platform. Reddit in special encourages it, and most lemmings are from Reddit.
Why this matters: because I believe people here are focusing too much on .ml and Hexbear, without noticing the problem would still persist without them.
Now look at social media. You'll see irrationals infesting every platform. Reddit in special encourages it, and most lemmings are from Reddit.
True, but on other social media, there's millions of users and it's a LOT easier to dilute the toxicity when a SMs D/MAU is being measured in the millions
Why this matters: because I believe people here are focusing too much on .ml and Hexbear, without noticing the problem would still persist without them.
Yea, but I really think .ml not being defederated from is causing a bit of a feedback loop encouraging similar toxic behavior in other users for their own, even non-Tankie, reasons
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It was a rather sombering thread, that echoed quite a bit of what I've been saying about .ml, the Triad, general toxicity of their Tankie "ideology" for months now.
I know @ptz@dubvee.org was speaking of general toxicity, but the Triad is a huge chunk of it, the culture they create...festers it. They comprise the bulk of the hostility, I've personally seen it over and over and over again. All the "Just go back to Reddit" or "just another lib Redditor refugee" comments for someone that dared to have nuance.
Hell, I saw hex users fucking cheering .ee's shutdown because it was some sort of psyop/CIA/fed/lib/"They didn't perfectly agree with me" instance. They call feddit.org a "Nazi Zionist" instance for the crime....of not wanting to be arrested and complying with German law...
I haven't looked to see if they've started any "celebratory" posts about Dubvee yet and I also don't really want to, if they're there, I already know what they're going to say in it -_-
Unfortunately, I fear the problem was far worse than I thought.
Ptz speculated that the toxicity has "metastasized". And you know what? He might be right, it seemed to be a lot better off 2 years ago, now....now I feel we might be losing the battle against the toxicity and I don't think PieFed will be enough. Complacency has set in
My hope was that with enough instances defederating from .ml and the rest of the Triad, it would be a tad easier to take down toxic Tankies, trolls and their alts. But, few wanted to burn the bridge with the toxic main devs' instance and now it might be too late. (Cheers to @Illecors@lemmy.cafe and the lemmy.cafe instance, one of the few of note to actually defederate from the entire triad!)
Like ptz said and I fully agree with, this place started with promise 2 years ago, but it appears to be ultimately morphing into 4chan (or like I've been saying, Voat 2.0) after all
Oh well, I've got some thick ass skin so I'll probably be here till the end, till the last sane instance shuts down.
I'll see you there @dessalines@lemmy.ml
/Sadmemerant
Heck, maybe I'll do a hail Mary and start an instance on a custom fork of lemmy with "normie proof" onboarding while dumping a few hundred in ADs (Maybe even on Reddit itself, HA!). I'll flood this place with "normies" LMAO
If anyone thinks this is turning into 4chan or even worse, voat, you seriously have not experienced either of those.
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Don't get too down. You're like literally my hero here. Piefed needs some work still but I'll put up a vote to move 3d printing to piefed.world when it gets sorted enough. I REALLY wish someone would implement the option in the Lemmy API to disregard down votes completely (alexandrite - lookin at you). The negativity when I am already having a bad day or week or month is often a very big deal to me that causes me to go elsewhere. I'm especially ostracized by people that are insane about AI negativity. I can now prove quite a bit about my ramblings and explorations, but that is a pit of stupidity here so I go elsewhere to talk to others about it. I'm okay with the mixed group and people of various ages and backgrounds. It is the lack of respect for people of all levels and backgrounds by others in how they interact that I do not like. Just be positive. IMO if downvotes must exist they should only exist for those that post regularly. I upvote all kinds of stuff, many times just to counter some negative fool. I'll upvote almost anything just to say "I'm happy you're here and a part of this place because it is a little more wonderful with you here," - even when I have no clue or interest in some niche scope. The world can be a terrible negative place, but your one choice and vote in this life is to be a part of the solution or a part of the problem. Fuck the problems; be a solution. What could I do to help you? β seriously digital neighbor friend.
Hey i didn't know about the 3dprinting instance. Neat clicks
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.ml is the flagship instance run by Lemmy's developers, and that's always been tankie.
Well that explains a lot. Kinda feel bad then but I guess that's the point of federations
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It was a rather sombering thread, that echoed quite a bit of what I've been saying about .ml, the Triad, general toxicity of their Tankie "ideology" for months now.
I know @ptz@dubvee.org was speaking of general toxicity, but the Triad is a huge chunk of it, the culture they create...festers it. They comprise the bulk of the hostility, I've personally seen it over and over and over again. All the "Just go back to Reddit" or "just another lib Redditor refugee" comments for someone that dared to have nuance.
Hell, I saw hex users fucking cheering .ee's shutdown because it was some sort of psyop/CIA/fed/lib/"They didn't perfectly agree with me" instance. They call feddit.org a "Nazi Zionist" instance for the crime....of not wanting to be arrested and complying with German law...
I haven't looked to see if they've started any "celebratory" posts about Dubvee yet and I also don't really want to, if they're there, I already know what they're going to say in it -_-
Unfortunately, I fear the problem was far worse than I thought.
Ptz speculated that the toxicity has "metastasized". And you know what? He might be right, it seemed to be a lot better off 2 years ago, now....now I feel we might be losing the battle against the toxicity and I don't think PieFed will be enough. Complacency has set in
My hope was that with enough instances defederating from .ml and the rest of the Triad, it would be a tad easier to take down toxic Tankies, trolls and their alts. But, few wanted to burn the bridge with the toxic main devs' instance and now it might be too late. (Cheers to @Illecors@lemmy.cafe and the lemmy.cafe instance, one of the few of note to actually defederate from the entire triad!)
Like ptz said and I fully agree with, this place started with promise 2 years ago, but it appears to be ultimately morphing into 4chan (or like I've been saying, Voat 2.0) after all
Oh well, I've got some thick ass skin so I'll probably be here till the end, till the last sane instance shuts down.
I'll see you there @dessalines@lemmy.ml
/Sadmemerant
Heck, maybe I'll do a hail Mary and start an instance on a custom fork of lemmy with "normie proof" onboarding while dumping a few hundred in ADs (Maybe even on Reddit itself, HA!). I'll flood this place with "normies" LMAO
I usually donβt get bothered by people on the Internet, but holy fucking shit how I was absolutely going crazy over the fact that people unironically shill North Korea.
I'm Korean. We are under constant threat of shit balloons and missiles. They punish people and their family members for trying to leave the country. How can one possibly look at that and say, "Yep, that's fine"?
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I'll repeat a few things I've been saying about this. To keep it
short:less verbose:What people call "toxicity" online relies heavily on irrationality, from the aggressor and/or the target. And politics raises the stakes of everything, so irrationality + political engagement is specially prone to generate catty behaviour, name calling, uncalled combativeness, and all that crap.
Now look at social media. You'll see irrationals infesting every platform. Reddit in special encourages it, and most lemmings are from Reddit.
Why this matters: because I believe people here are focusing too much on .ml and Hexbear, without noticing the problem would still persist without them.
From the day those protests started Lemmy was far far worse than Reddit for anyone but further left progressives. I have fat more often been called a Nazi here for like warm takes.
It's a spectrum and Lemmy is definitely a far more toxic place then reddit is if you don't agree. -
It was a rather sombering thread, that echoed quite a bit of what I've been saying about .ml, the Triad, general toxicity of their Tankie "ideology" for months now.
I know @ptz@dubvee.org was speaking of general toxicity, but the Triad is a huge chunk of it, the culture they create...festers it. They comprise the bulk of the hostility, I've personally seen it over and over and over again. All the "Just go back to Reddit" or "just another lib Redditor refugee" comments for someone that dared to have nuance.
Hell, I saw hex users fucking cheering .ee's shutdown because it was some sort of psyop/CIA/fed/lib/"They didn't perfectly agree with me" instance. They call feddit.org a "Nazi Zionist" instance for the crime....of not wanting to be arrested and complying with German law...
I haven't looked to see if they've started any "celebratory" posts about Dubvee yet and I also don't really want to, if they're there, I already know what they're going to say in it -_-
Unfortunately, I fear the problem was far worse than I thought.
Ptz speculated that the toxicity has "metastasized". And you know what? He might be right, it seemed to be a lot better off 2 years ago, now....now I feel we might be losing the battle against the toxicity and I don't think PieFed will be enough. Complacency has set in
My hope was that with enough instances defederating from .ml and the rest of the Triad, it would be a tad easier to take down toxic Tankies, trolls and their alts. But, few wanted to burn the bridge with the toxic main devs' instance and now it might be too late. (Cheers to @Illecors@lemmy.cafe and the lemmy.cafe instance, one of the few of note to actually defederate from the entire triad!)
Like ptz said and I fully agree with, this place started with promise 2 years ago, but it appears to be ultimately morphing into 4chan (or like I've been saying, Voat 2.0) after all
Oh well, I've got some thick ass skin so I'll probably be here till the end, till the last sane instance shuts down.
I'll see you there @dessalines@lemmy.ml
/Sadmemerant
Heck, maybe I'll do a hail Mary and start an instance on a custom fork of lemmy with "normie proof" onboarding while dumping a few hundred in ADs (Maybe even on Reddit itself, HA!). I'll flood this place with "normies" LMAO
The dubvee shutdown posts makes some valid point, but I disagree on a few others.
The communities I'm in are mostly safe from toxic users
- !movies@piefed.social
- !casualconversation@piefed.social
- !wholesome@reddthat.com
- !lego@piefed.social
- !football@sopuli.xyz
I avoid news and politics, that probably helps a lot on that regard
This might be a call for mods to keep an eye on reports, and for users to post and comment on well moderated community. !fedigrow@lemmy.zip can help.
It's sad to see Admiral Patrick go, but it's not all doom and gloom.
Reddit keeps enshittifying (DM shutdown, UK age verification), we might see new people come here soon.
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I know people love to hate on ai but I think that might be the moderation tool needed. Make a bot that just liberally hands out bans and call it Stalin bot. The tankies would love getting banned by that.
Doesn't work because the "ai" bot lacks consistency. Even those dum-dums using it for hiring, medical aid or tech support do so as a token practice and in turn the service is practically nonexistent.
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The dubvee shutdown posts makes some valid point, but I disagree on a few others.
The communities I'm in are mostly safe from toxic users
- !movies@piefed.social
- !casualconversation@piefed.social
- !wholesome@reddthat.com
- !lego@piefed.social
- !football@sopuli.xyz
I avoid news and politics, that probably helps a lot on that regard
This might be a call for mods to keep an eye on reports, and for users to post and comment on well moderated community. !fedigrow@lemmy.zip can help.
It's sad to see Admiral Patrick go, but it's not all doom and gloom.
Reddit keeps enshittifying (DM shutdown, UK age verification), we might see new people come here soon.
I feel the same way, and do the same thing. News and politics will be toxic almost anywhere on the internet I feel like. And I guess general meme communities might too since the subject matter is often news and politics there as well.
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It was a rather sombering thread, that echoed quite a bit of what I've been saying about .ml, the Triad, general toxicity of their Tankie "ideology" for months now.
I know @ptz@dubvee.org was speaking of general toxicity, but the Triad is a huge chunk of it, the culture they create...festers it. They comprise the bulk of the hostility, I've personally seen it over and over and over again. All the "Just go back to Reddit" or "just another lib Redditor refugee" comments for someone that dared to have nuance.
Hell, I saw hex users fucking cheering .ee's shutdown because it was some sort of psyop/CIA/fed/lib/"They didn't perfectly agree with me" instance. They call feddit.org a "Nazi Zionist" instance for the crime....of not wanting to be arrested and complying with German law...
I haven't looked to see if they've started any "celebratory" posts about Dubvee yet and I also don't really want to, if they're there, I already know what they're going to say in it -_-
Unfortunately, I fear the problem was far worse than I thought.
Ptz speculated that the toxicity has "metastasized". And you know what? He might be right, it seemed to be a lot better off 2 years ago, now....now I feel we might be losing the battle against the toxicity and I don't think PieFed will be enough. Complacency has set in
My hope was that with enough instances defederating from .ml and the rest of the Triad, it would be a tad easier to take down toxic Tankies, trolls and their alts. But, few wanted to burn the bridge with the toxic main devs' instance and now it might be too late. (Cheers to @Illecors@lemmy.cafe and the lemmy.cafe instance, one of the few of note to actually defederate from the entire triad!)
Like ptz said and I fully agree with, this place started with promise 2 years ago, but it appears to be ultimately morphing into 4chan (or like I've been saying, Voat 2.0) after all
Oh well, I've got some thick ass skin so I'll probably be here till the end, till the last sane instance shuts down.
I'll see you there @dessalines@lemmy.ml
/Sadmemerant
Heck, maybe I'll do a hail Mary and start an instance on a custom fork of lemmy with "normie proof" onboarding while dumping a few hundred in ADs (Maybe even on Reddit itself, HA!). I'll flood this place with "normies" LMAO
Unfortunately I think some of this perception is an example of the echo chamber problem of social media.
If you're in the politics and news echo chambers you see horrendous toxicity all the time. But if you're in hobby groups and interest groups that have nothing to do with politics it's generally not toxic in my experience.
I'm in both and there are loads of positive and kind communities and people around. I fear the moderators in particular have an understandably skewed view as they have to trudge through the toxic shit every day and protect a lot of the rest of us from it.
I think there is something to be said for more defederation of entire instances where toxic cuktures are allowed to thrive, even if they also happen to host more positive communities too. Those communities need to move and the priority for the Threadiverse tech needs to be enabling movement of communities as easily and painlessly as possible so the toxic areas can be left to fester on their own.
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I feel the same way, and do the same thing. News and politics will be toxic almost anywhere on the internet I feel like. And I guess general meme communities might too since the subject matter is often news and politics there as well.
Yes, definitely.
I only keep !funny@sh.itjust.works as it's usually actual funny content and not political messages (whatever the stance) hidden behind memes
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Yes, definitely.
I only keep !funny@sh.itjust.works as it's usually actual funny content and not political messages (whatever the stance) hidden behind memes
!gaming@lemmy.world has been pretty innocuous, and I also like the ADHD and autism memes. But that's it for me. And I never browse /all, only Subscribed and Local.
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It was a rather sombering thread, that echoed quite a bit of what I've been saying about .ml, the Triad, general toxicity of their Tankie "ideology" for months now.
I know @ptz@dubvee.org was speaking of general toxicity, but the Triad is a huge chunk of it, the culture they create...festers it. They comprise the bulk of the hostility, I've personally seen it over and over and over again. All the "Just go back to Reddit" or "just another lib Redditor refugee" comments for someone that dared to have nuance.
Hell, I saw hex users fucking cheering .ee's shutdown because it was some sort of psyop/CIA/fed/lib/"They didn't perfectly agree with me" instance. They call feddit.org a "Nazi Zionist" instance for the crime....of not wanting to be arrested and complying with German law...
I haven't looked to see if they've started any "celebratory" posts about Dubvee yet and I also don't really want to, if they're there, I already know what they're going to say in it -_-
Unfortunately, I fear the problem was far worse than I thought.
Ptz speculated that the toxicity has "metastasized". And you know what? He might be right, it seemed to be a lot better off 2 years ago, now....now I feel we might be losing the battle against the toxicity and I don't think PieFed will be enough. Complacency has set in
My hope was that with enough instances defederating from .ml and the rest of the Triad, it would be a tad easier to take down toxic Tankies, trolls and their alts. But, few wanted to burn the bridge with the toxic main devs' instance and now it might be too late. (Cheers to @Illecors@lemmy.cafe and the lemmy.cafe instance, one of the few of note to actually defederate from the entire triad!)
Like ptz said and I fully agree with, this place started with promise 2 years ago, but it appears to be ultimately morphing into 4chan (or like I've been saying, Voat 2.0) after all
Oh well, I've got some thick ass skin so I'll probably be here till the end, till the last sane instance shuts down.
I'll see you there @dessalines@lemmy.ml
/Sadmemerant
Heck, maybe I'll do a hail Mary and start an instance on a custom fork of lemmy with "normie proof" onboarding while dumping a few hundred in ADs (Maybe even on Reddit itself, HA!). I'll flood this place with "normies" LMAO
TIL dubvee is shutting down.
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.ml has/had a lot of entirely normal people as a lot of people went to it before and during the reddit exodus and set up communities there, myself included.
Then they should migrate or make an alt.
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Uh, I'm not sure if you read a different thread, but in his formal shutdown thread in !announcements@dubvee.org he was quite clear about it being about fighting against the toxicity. He basically got to a good point, but because of the .ee wake he had to start over.
But yes .ee was a special case, it was sad especially being the second largest instance. But a second instance shutdown in a month also citing burnout and toxicity is a red flag.
Now I'm worried if next week SJW or slrpnk is going to announce their shutdown due to toxicity
We (slrpnk.net) are only planning to move to Piefed due to technical annoyances with Lemmy the software. As I wrote above, the level of toxicity we see on our instance is really not so bad.
