I don't think people here realized yet how much development has sped up in the "atmosphere*"
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@Bike I mostly agree about the reasons you mention here. I guess the part that I am uncertain is what exactly "won" will look like. I don't see the current fediverse going away, but I do fail to see any path at this getting mainstream adoption like bluesky is currently getting. and that narrative concerns me. I think there are still avenues that must be taken to work together on a shared future path.
@liaizon @Bike
Na... bluesky will eventually entshittified at some point and mastodon will still be there.It is not something we have to win, I am pretty happy that my mastodon feed is nazi-free, I am pretty sure it would be different there (but it will NOT go and check).
I got discussions here I never had on twitter (even when twitter was good).
The philosophy is different, and if it means it cannot win the game, then I will be happy losing. -
@squeakypancakes @liaizon what am I oppressing by saying anarchism and anti-capitalism is an extremist ideology? It's far left. Far. You guys are oppressing ME
@nicobao @squeakypancakes @liaizon the concept of extremism is moot in a headspace that sprung from monarchism and might makes right
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@nicobao @squeakypancakes @liaizon the concept of extremism is moot in a headspace that sprung from monarchism and might makes right
@nicobao or at least it should be defined by ones internal compass, in which case anarchism is close to home and by no means extreme
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@liaizon you're taking this WAY too personally, while we don't even know each other. I am very much entitled to my own opinion, btw, cofounder of Agora or not. I am not an anticapitalist anarchist, fine, so what? What the heck is this ad hominem attack? The whole point of Agora is to get people to talk to each other, people who usually don't appreciate each other, without trolling, and finding common ground. Your very reaction shows exactly why I build it.
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I don't think people here realized yet how much development has sped up in the "atmosphere*"
I fear for the future of the fediverse if we don't get our shit together in some key areas. The way the lexicon system over there allows interoperability between distinct types of data and interface is really showing now that the developer ecosystem is picking up.
*The network comprised of different stuff that uses AT Proto
@liaizon I’m not sure who “we” is. There’s this constant competition y’all seem to want to foster. I’m staying way the fuck away from anything that’s chasing VC funding. But honestly, that’s just me. The more choice people have, the better. People have had these fears for a long time but ActivityPub just keeps on chugging along.
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@liaizon i think one factor the ap ecosystem could do a lot better at is finding nodes for ap devs to aggregate around. part of atproto ecosystem dev speed is technical, but other important part is how atproto has a much more legible dev ecosystem that constantly interacts with each other. ap dev ecosystem is much more fragmented, with very little interaction between the devs
@laurenshof @liaizon interactions between AP software devs is painful to watch sometimes, and the lack of interest from imolementers to work on standards is truly impressive.
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@laurenshof @liaizon interactions between AP software devs is painful to watch sometimes, and the lack of interest from imolementers to work on standards is truly impressive.
@thisismissem @laurenshof I really really don't understand why so many ap devs just refuse altogether to participate in the standardiazion process. I wonder how we could make FEPs more exciting for people. How much of this is a vibe thing
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@thisismissem @laurenshof I really really don't understand why so many ap devs just refuse altogether to participate in the standardiazion process. I wonder how we could make FEPs more exciting for people. How much of this is a vibe thing
@liaizon @laurenshof because politics and fights and strong opinions divide us.
Standards work, particularly at the W3C, attracts a certain type of person, and that's usually very different to builders.
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@liaizon @laurenshof because politics and fights and strong opinions divide us.
Standards work, particularly at the W3C, attracts a certain type of person, and that's usually very different to builders.
@thisismissem @liaizon @laurenshof 2¢: I'm writing my first FEP right now, it's a big one, and all the implementers have been great. Bringing their ideas and goals and perspectives, being polite, constructive and helpful. Might be a reflection of who's there (or who isn't), but hey.
The only hurdle so far is that no one seems to want to write.
Then again, not having to merge other people's chunks of text into a cohesive document has its upsides. -
@thisismissem @liaizon @laurenshof 2¢: I'm writing my first FEP right now, it's a big one, and all the implementers have been great. Bringing their ideas and goals and perspectives, being polite, constructive and helpful. Might be a reflection of who's there (or who isn't), but hey.
The only hurdle so far is that no one seems to want to write.
Then again, not having to merge other people's chunks of text into a cohesive document has its upsides.@julian @liaizon @laurenshof wait until after the FEP is written and published..
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@thisismissem @liaizon @laurenshof 2¢: I'm writing my first FEP right now, it's a big one, and all the implementers have been great. Bringing their ideas and goals and perspectives, being polite, constructive and helpful. Might be a reflection of who's there (or who isn't), but hey.
The only hurdle so far is that no one seems to want to write.
Then again, not having to merge other people's chunks of text into a cohesive document has its upsides.@julian @thisismissem @laurenshof happy to see an optimistic take here! Can't wait to see the implementers list start popping off
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@liaizon @laurenshof because politics and fights and strong opinions divide us.
Standards work, particularly at the W3C, attracts a certain type of person, and that's usually very different to builders.
@thisismissem from my perspective, I don't feel comfortable writing a specification until I have verified it with a proof of concept. And by the time the proof of concept is done to my satisfaction, usually the community has moved to another solution to doing the same thing so it becomes kinda of a moot point.
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Bluesky also has its roots in other anarchist alternative networks. It takes a lot of inspiration from the core architects being involved in SSB (Secure Scuttlebutt)
The fediverse is anticapitalist I shout from the tallest mountain. The fediverse is explicitly an anarchist project I whistle into the wind. The fediverse is not the protocol, it is not a technology, it is an ideology above all that human communication should not be controlled by companies or oligarchs but by our friends and neighbors.
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@liaizon @401matthall any recommendations for reading materials?
I think it's pretty objective to say there is a problem between funding public goods versus venture capital where most of the money is. It's well studied and I've read a bit about it already. I'm all for alternative forms of financing. That's why I'm interested in the crypto space as well. I'm happy to learn about new ways to co-finance public goods sustainably.i really should try to get back to sleep, but i saw you never got a response and i strongly believe in giving people resources if they’re genuinely open to other ideas.
when it comes to being anti-capitalist, i think of the Mr. Gotcha comic
https://www.reddit.com/r/WorkReform/comments/zojnmv/mister_gotcha_by_the_great_matt_bors_dont_be_a/
you can recognize capitalism as harmful and also “participate” in it when you have to survive in a society that offers no alternative, while you work towards said alternative.
i think of the frustration that can come from therapists being “paid to care.” a therapist can genuinely care while being paid - they need to eat.
i would recommend following people who are anti-capitalist, as well as minorities (racial/lgbt/disabled) so you can understand how capitalism harms people, and also learn about alternative ideas (since there are many). do understand that a lot of discussions may be emotionally charged and might make you feel uncomfortable. i have, and still often do, feel that way. generally i try not to argue, but i take the information in and reflect on it. what it means, why the person had the response, what is making me have my emotional response. i’ve found it so useful for educating myself as well as having better emotional regulation, empathy, patience, and compassion. there is no losing.
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@reiver
There is lots of talking about a Fedi "culture" that allows this and expects that. But the real culture is that we allow these gatekeepers and bullies to shout, despite that they don't represent the Fediverse, "the community" or "the culture". Every time a developer folds the bullies win and we lose.
@lrhodes @liaizon -
I don't think people here realized yet how much development has sped up in the "atmosphere*"
I fear for the future of the fediverse if we don't get our shit together in some key areas. The way the lexicon system over there allows interoperability between distinct types of data and interface is really showing now that the developer ecosystem is picking up.
*The network comprised of different stuff that uses AT Proto
The separation between PDS and appview is a great advantage. I guess ActivityPods's is trying to do something similar by unify Solis and AP, but I don't see much talk about it.
ATProto also has something alike Zot's "nomadic identity". And while there has been work to get it working on ActivityPub, only a few software support it and many don't even care about implementing it.
A big problem of the AP side of fedi is that while seeing itself as the most decentralised in quantitative terms, in some qualitative aspect acts in a semi-centralised manner either by making migration harder and incomplete or by being suspicious of any tool that separates identity from log in credential (nomadic identity, multiple identities, etc). It's pretty obvious that many AP devs and sysadmins have a user lock-in mentally and only defend the self-hosting aspect of decentralisation.
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@thisismissem @laurenshof I really really don't understand why so many ap devs just refuse altogether to participate in the standardiazion process. I wonder how we could make FEPs more exciting for people. How much of this is a vibe thing
@liaizon @thisismissem @laurenshof it's because FEPs aren't standards and the actual standards are not allowed to change
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I don't think people here realized yet how much development has sped up in the "atmosphere*"
I fear for the future of the fediverse if we don't get our shit together in some key areas. The way the lexicon system over there allows interoperability between distinct types of data and interface is really showing now that the developer ecosystem is picking up.
*The network comprised of different stuff that uses AT Proto
@liaizon I absolutely agree. I think the client-first development environment for ATProto makes this kind of work extremely emergent.
As @tsyesika said at FOSDEM in the Social Web Devroom, the ActivityPub social API ("C2S") is our equivalent to this programming interface. We need to get it kickstarted so we can build interesting social networking applications without having to build the server side, delivery, queuing, etc.
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@liaizon I absolutely agree. I think the client-first development environment for ATProto makes this kind of work extremely emergent.
As @tsyesika said at FOSDEM in the Social Web Devroom, the ActivityPub social API ("C2S") is our equivalent to this programming interface. We need to get it kickstarted so we can build interesting social networking applications without having to build the server side, delivery, queuing, etc.
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