idk where to really put this (might turn into a blog post later or something).
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trittriton@shelter.moereplied to trwnh@mastodon.social last edited by
@trwnh Is something like
https://midnight.pub/or BBS (on the #Gemini protocol):
https://portal.mozz.us/gemini/bbs.geminispace.org/
gemini://bbs.geminispace.orgor Station:
https://portal.mozz.us/gemini/station.martinrue.com/
gemini://station.martinrue.comor “Message to the void”:
https://void.si3t.ch/ -
trwnh@mastodon.socialreplied to trittriton@shelter.moe last edited by
@TritTriton idk but it doesn't seem like it at first glance. i'm thinking more about something that shows up in a web browser, combined with another thing that lets you author and manage web resources more easily than current tooling
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trwnh@mastodon.socialreplied to trwnh@mastodon.social last edited by
@TritTriton it's more like "ugh can we go back to blogs and forums and then build from there? we took a wrong turn with the rise of social media"
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trwnh@mastodon.socialreplied to trwnh@mastodon.social last edited by
addendum 32/30
there's a separate thought experiment you could do about what it really takes for a "social networking protocol" because honestly you don't even need http. you can do "social networking" over xmpp or email or whatever. or invent your own way to send bytes over tcp/udp/whatever (inb4 xkcd)
seriously tho, newsletters and deltachat and movim and a bunch of other things show that you can do it
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oblomov@sociale.networkreplied to trwnh@mastodon.social last edited by
@trwnh this was a fascinating read, thanks for sharing. Looking forward to the blog post.
I've had thoughts along those lines since I've started using Mastodon and getting familiar with AP, which I always saw as an extension of email and Usenet rather than a more general tool for the “social web” —and even for that it's being held back by the absence of a “content independent” AP server (AFAIK the only one in development is Vocata, and it still has some way to go).
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polotek@social.polotek.netreplied to trwnh@mastodon.social last edited by
@trwnh thanks for writing this thread. It sparked a lot of thoughts for me.
I do have one response in the form of a question. What's stopping you from just doing the thing you want? You don't really need permission.
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acka47@openbiblio.socialreplied to trwnh@mastodon.social last edited by
@trwnh Thanks for the thread! Coming myself from a linked data background and having adopted a simple use of JSON-LD as Linked Open Usable Data (LOUD), I never understood (and still don't understand) what problems people have with JSON-LD in AP and AS. I am much in favour of an open world approach. It is quite powerful if people share their extensions and try to find and reuse solutions by others. In the end, we'd create shared data models together: a social act for the social web.
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trwnh@mastodon.socialreplied to acka47@openbiblio.social last edited by
@acka47 the core of the complaint is that people want to handle one key and one key only. they don't want to map terms to IRIs, or IRIs to terms. they'd prefer picking exactly one symbol and use that as the property key.
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trwnh@mastodon.socialreplied to oblomov@sociale.network last edited by
@oblomov yeah, there's the old "it's like email but for websites!" which isn't terribly inaccurate, but that's honestly more a consequence of "HTTP POST to ldp:inbox" than anything else in AP. the side effects for each activity kinda stray from that model and go into almost RPC-like territory. there's also some potential redundancy with HTTP verbs, but that's because HTTP verbs don't notify arbitrary audiences (although i guess they could do that with a header!)
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trwnh@mastodon.socialreplied to polotek@social.polotek.net last edited by
@polotek me personally? i'm not much of a coder, i'm way better at designing a system and describing how it should work, not so much actually building it. although i am in talks with some folks who seem interested, so uh... maybe check back in like 5 years? or heck, possibly even two if we're lucky!
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blaine@mastodon.socialreplied to trwnh@mastodon.social last edited by
@trwnh nice writeup! Just glancing, so without getting into detail, I think I agree.
This is perhaps my own bias in all of this, but it's interesting that one of the most-consistent aspect of Fedi implementations is their reliance on Webfinger.
I worked on that part because I didn't think the data format stuff really mattered that much, and at worst was going to be stifling. It was excluded from AP for political, http fundamentalist reasons, but [imho] is essential to the networks functioning.
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blaine@mastodon.socialreplied to blaine@mastodon.social last edited by
@trwnh linking, which as you point out is key – to people – depends on regular people being able to share their names. I learned a long time ago that most people aren't good at groking the HTTP part of links, because the structure of links is actually really complex. When you mention xmpp and email, the identifier is the thing that makes both of those networks work.
For me, "fedi" or "AP" or the social web or whatever we want to call it has always been about making personal identity linkable.
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blaine@mastodon.socialreplied to blaine@mastodon.social last edited by
@trwnh when the first round of "social networks" were built, the first thing that got added to the databases were a "users" and a "friends" table, because "the web" doesn't (didn't?) have that.
Decentralizing that is a radical act, and the sorts of things that we can do with a linked [bi-directional] web of people is infinite and bounded only by our imaginations. AS and AP actions and data formats and C2S are, as I think you're saying, just stubs for rebuilding the old world in a new way. ️
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trwnh@mastodon.socialreplied to blaine@mastodon.social last edited by
@blaine i'm wondering to what extent fedi would implement webfinger if mastodon didn't require it
i think if i had to really pick a format for identity then it would be a weak preference for FQDN, but having your id be a pretty-url is also okay i guess. but one other thing that i think would be cool is being able to find your contacts via webfinger if they choose to make themselves findable by other means! so you could do wf?resource=tel: or ?resource=mailto: and still get back useful info...
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blaine@mastodon.socialreplied to trwnh@mastodon.social last edited by
@trwnh fun fact, webfinger actually supports URLs and [in theory] phone numbers!
The key (and this is a social science and cultural insight, not technical) is that when you ask someone's "name" or "address" they need something that's unambiguous, personal, and opaque in the sense that it works everywhere (online / distributed, it needs to be globally unique, too) or they won't use it.
Bare domains aren't ideal because (1) they're expensive and (2) management is hard.
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trwnh@mastodon.socialreplied to blaine@mastodon.social last edited by
@blaine yeah, the ultimate goal is letting people link with each other in the spaces that they wanna link up
i think "your website" should be like your home, but also you should be able to go to other websites just as if they were "venues". so you go to the local forum to hang out. but you can still have your activity on that forum broadcasted to your followers. or alternatively you can participate in the forum from your own site, just like you can reply to a github notification email!
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trwnh@mastodon.socialreplied to blaine@mastodon.social last edited by
@blaine tumblr made it work so idk if it's "ideal" per se but they definitely had a cultural thing going for quite a while with "dot tumblr dot com" even being a meme at some point
it can't be too hard to manage tbh, the modern version of this is atproto handle services that do nothing but allocate you a subdomain for use on bluesky
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blaine@mastodon.socialreplied to blaine@mastodon.social last edited by
@trwnh the "trick" with webfinger is that it's a way to go from a "name" to an authoritative context (the authority for "x@y.xyz"' is "y.xyz" and the authority for "blah.com" is "blah.com"; the challenge with phone numbers is that it's impossible to infer the authority for +1-416-867-5309 / telcos don't provide a lookup system). That's really it; the rest is a cultural thing.
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trwnh@mastodon.socialreplied to blaine@mastodon.social last edited by
@blaine there might not be an authority for a phone number but i think it can be handled more like a combo of "local dns resolver" + "registry of phone number". sure in many cases with identifiers that have an authority component you can just use their webfinger if they have one, but i think it would also be cool to be able to use your own webfinger and "proxy out" as needed, in the same way that dns does it
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blaine@mastodon.socialreplied to trwnh@mastodon.social last edited by
@trwnh yup! My long-standing argument is that "jesus of nazareth" *is* the same thing in a social context as an email address / webfinger address, and that "[person] in [context]" is something that's seared into how we do social cognition, whether it's "[name] [family name]" or "[family name] [name]" – i.e., the format per se doesn't matter so much as the recognition that names-for-humans are different from http-style links with e.g. paths and query strings, etc.