How Much Each Project Gets Monthly in USD
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Expressing concerns about moderation policy on lemmy.ml - Lemmy.World
This was originally posted to lemmy.pineapplemachine.com [http://lemmy.pineapplemachine.com]: https://lemmy.pineapplemachine.com/post/5781 [https://lemmy.pineapplemachine.com/post/5781] It has also been posted to lemmy.ca [http://lemmy.ca]: https://lemmy.ca/post/591991 [https://lemmy.ca/post/591991] — Lemmy is federated and decentralized and that means that we can all coexist regardless of our differing political opinions. I think it’s important to preface this by saying that I am not offended by or concerned with anyone’s politics, and I’m certainly not here to argue with anyone about them. My concern is that users are being banned and content is being removed on lemmy.ml [http://lemmy.ml] citing a rule that is not publicly stated anywhere that I have seen. Moderators of lemmy.ml [http://lemmy.ml] are removing posts and comments which are critical of the Chinese government and are banning their authors. This came to my attention because of how lemmy user bans are federated just like everything else, and I was confused about why my instance had logged a lemmy.ml [http://lemmy.ml] user ban citing “orientalism” as the reason for the ban. Screenshot of my own instance’s modlog, as viewed by an admin [https://lemmy.pineapplemachine.com/pictrs/image/81e3aa97-9fa0-4045-b27a-76d7f8a304e8.png] I noticed that the banned user had recently commented on a post in !worldnews@lemmy.ml [/c/worldnews@lemmy.ml] that had been removed with the reason “Orientalist article”. Screenshot of banned user’s history on lemmy.ml [https://lemmy.pineapplemachine.com/pictrs/image/c3ac484c-6ae3-490a-82a7-1ae866286d48.png] Screenshot of lemmy.ml modlog [https://lemmy.pineapplemachine.com/pictrs/image/6be9f59a-1a6b-41fc-9642-7c3127559c84.png] Here’s the article that was removed, titled “China may face succession crisis”. It was published by axios.com [http://axios.com], which mediabiasfactcheck describes as having “a slight to moderate liberal bias” and gives its second-highest ranking for factual reporting. The article writes unfavorably of Chinese President Xi Jinping. https://www.axios.com/2023/06/06/china-may-face-succession-crisis [https://www.axios.com/2023/06/06/china-may-face-succession-crisis] https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/axios/ [https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/axios/] I had not remembered seeing anything in lemmy.ml [http://lemmy.ml]’s rules that would suggest that “orientalism”—meaning, as I understand it, the depiction or discussion of Asian cultures by people in Western ones—was against the rules. So I checked, and I found that there was not. Not on the instance’s front page, and not in !worldnews@lemmy.ml [/c/worldnews@lemmy.ml]. Screenshot of instance rules for lemmy.ml [https://lemmy.pineapplemachine.com/pictrs/image/b539fafa-ba1a-43f6-aa37-d954e908c809.png] Screenshot of community rules for !worldnews@lemmy.ml [/c/worldnews@lemmy.ml] [https://lemmy.pineapplemachine.com/pictrs/image/9a5a8a2d-cfac-4658-8ef5-77a885079756.png] There is a stated rule against xenophobia, but I think that xenophobia is not widely understood to include Westerners writing critically of the actions of an Asian government. This is where I went from confused to concerned. Lemmy instances have public moderation logs, which I think is a very positive thing about the platform. So I looked more closely at lemmy.ml [http://lemmy.ml]’s moderation log. Please note that moderation logs are also federated. It’s hard to be 100% sure which instance a mod action is actually associated with, looking at these logs. The previously mentioned user ban and post removal were, I think, definitely actions taken by lemmy.ml [http://lemmy.ml] moderators. My own instance’s mod log identifies the banning moderator as a lemmy.ml [http://lemmy.ml] admin, and the removed post was submitted to a lemmy.ml [http://lemmy.ml] community. I’ve done my best to verify that all of the following removals were really done by lemmy.ml [http://lemmy.ml] moderators, but I can’t be absolutely certain. Please forgive me if any of them were actually made on other instances that do have an explicitly stated rule against orientalism. > Removed Comment Ah yes. Being against China’s racist genocide is racist. China, the imperialist ethno-state, is clearly innocent. by @CrimsonOnoscopy@beehaw.org [/u/CrimsonOnoscopy@beehaw.org] > reason: Orientalism Screenshot of lemmy.ml modlog [https://lemmy.pineapplemachine.com/pictrs/image/2c779f63-b231-4cec-8774-d999c8e26677.png] > Removed Comment Lol. Thinking some countries have better governments than others is supremacist? Whatever, dude. By the way. If there are any countries with decent governments, I don’t know of them. But like. If there were decent countries, they wouldn’t behave like China. by @balerion@beehaw.org [/u/balerion@beehaw.org] > reason: Orientalism Screenshot of lemmy.ml modlog [https://lemmy.pineapplemachine.com/pictrs/image/2232fd34-b6f4-4958-a683-9ca549989922.png] These following moderator actions did not specifically cite orientalism, but did not seem to be breaking any of the instance’s or community’s explicitly stated rules. > Banned @0x815@feddit.de [/u/0x815@feddit.de] reason: Only makes anti russia and anti china, crosspostst from reddit. 2nd temp ban > expires: 9d ago Screenshot of lemmy.ml modlog [https://lemmy.pineapplemachine.com/pictrs/image/ba863eac-59a9-48b1-bc0e-801adebf5d37.png] > Removed Comment Xinjiang, Inner Mongolia and Tibet are all Colonies of China, which it treats as Colonial Territories, by - Forcibly destroying the local culture. Forcefully extracting to harm of the locals. Genocide, abuse, kidnapping, rape. But there is no point in engaging to you. You are a liar. You know you are. When you deny genocides, you put yourself on the same side as the fascists and reactionaries of the past. by @CrimsonOnoscopy@beehaw.org [/u/CrimsonOnoscopy@beehaw.org] > reason: Rule 1 and 2 Screenshot of lemmy.ml modlog [https://lemmy.pineapplemachine.com/pictrs/image/a0e242b1-9a9a-4f66-8361-2f4b9d5a1a17.png] I have no affection for the Chinese government and I do not call myself a communist. I would not enforce a rule against orientalism on my own instance. But I think that lemmy.ml [http://lemmy.ml]’s moderators are entitled to enforce whatever rules they please. It’s only that, as the largest single lemmy instance so far, I believe that they have an obligation to disclose these rules, and an obligation to not ban users or remove content for failing to follow unobvious and unstated rules. I’d like to raise some awareness about this, and I’d like to openly ask the moderators of lemmy.ml [http://lemmy.ml] to state the rules that they intend to enforce clearly and explicitly. I will be very clear and state it again: I am not asking for anyone to change their opinions or to not enforce a rule that they believe in. That is the great thing about lemmy, that we can coexist in this federated community even when we don’t share the same opinions. What I am asking is for lemmy.ml [http://lemmy.ml]’s rules to be clearly stated, because I think it does not reflect well on the broader community if the predominant instance moderates its users and content according to rules that are not being explicitly disclosed.
(lemmy.world)
Lemmy ask you anything (again)
The Lemmy developers hosted an AMA, and I take a look at some of the comments that stood out to me.
fediversereport.com (fediversereport.com)
The Lemmy Developers are now personally blocking and banning users and communities critical of Tankies and the Developers. - sh.itjust.works
A few years ago, the Lemmy Developers decided to keep their political views on lemmygrad while keeping lemmy.ml [http://lemmy.ml] more neutral. Now they are banning users who are critical of their actions and bigotry. Anti-Tankie posts may put you at risk of being banned from commenting and posting on the lemmy.ml [http://lemmy.ml] instance.
(sh.itjust.works)
They responded to the accusations with the following press-releases, but I'm not convinced:
I might switch or have both Lemmy and PieFed profiles. When you moved to PieFed, was it possible to sync or import your data from Lemmy? Comments, posts, upvotes, etc.
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I moved to Piefed because the Lemmy devs are pro-fascist tankies. I can provide proof.
"pro-fascist" and "tankie" are polar opposites. There is a clear contradiction in your claim.
Or you used the liberal definition where fascist means "not white enough" and tankie means the same...
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I moved to Piefed because the Lemmy devs are pro-fascist tankies. I can provide proof.
If you have to slander us, at least try to make it believable.
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Expressing concerns about moderation policy on lemmy.ml - Lemmy.World
This was originally posted to lemmy.pineapplemachine.com [http://lemmy.pineapplemachine.com]: https://lemmy.pineapplemachine.com/post/5781 [https://lemmy.pineapplemachine.com/post/5781] It has also been posted to lemmy.ca [http://lemmy.ca]: https://lemmy.ca/post/591991 [https://lemmy.ca/post/591991] — Lemmy is federated and decentralized and that means that we can all coexist regardless of our differing political opinions. I think it’s important to preface this by saying that I am not offended by or concerned with anyone’s politics, and I’m certainly not here to argue with anyone about them. My concern is that users are being banned and content is being removed on lemmy.ml [http://lemmy.ml] citing a rule that is not publicly stated anywhere that I have seen. Moderators of lemmy.ml [http://lemmy.ml] are removing posts and comments which are critical of the Chinese government and are banning their authors. This came to my attention because of how lemmy user bans are federated just like everything else, and I was confused about why my instance had logged a lemmy.ml [http://lemmy.ml] user ban citing “orientalism” as the reason for the ban. Screenshot of my own instance’s modlog, as viewed by an admin [https://lemmy.pineapplemachine.com/pictrs/image/81e3aa97-9fa0-4045-b27a-76d7f8a304e8.png] I noticed that the banned user had recently commented on a post in !worldnews@lemmy.ml [/c/worldnews@lemmy.ml] that had been removed with the reason “Orientalist article”. Screenshot of banned user’s history on lemmy.ml [https://lemmy.pineapplemachine.com/pictrs/image/c3ac484c-6ae3-490a-82a7-1ae866286d48.png] Screenshot of lemmy.ml modlog [https://lemmy.pineapplemachine.com/pictrs/image/6be9f59a-1a6b-41fc-9642-7c3127559c84.png] Here’s the article that was removed, titled “China may face succession crisis”. It was published by axios.com [http://axios.com], which mediabiasfactcheck describes as having “a slight to moderate liberal bias” and gives its second-highest ranking for factual reporting. The article writes unfavorably of Chinese President Xi Jinping. https://www.axios.com/2023/06/06/china-may-face-succession-crisis [https://www.axios.com/2023/06/06/china-may-face-succession-crisis] https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/axios/ [https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/axios/] I had not remembered seeing anything in lemmy.ml [http://lemmy.ml]’s rules that would suggest that “orientalism”—meaning, as I understand it, the depiction or discussion of Asian cultures by people in Western ones—was against the rules. So I checked, and I found that there was not. Not on the instance’s front page, and not in !worldnews@lemmy.ml [/c/worldnews@lemmy.ml]. Screenshot of instance rules for lemmy.ml [https://lemmy.pineapplemachine.com/pictrs/image/b539fafa-ba1a-43f6-aa37-d954e908c809.png] Screenshot of community rules for !worldnews@lemmy.ml [/c/worldnews@lemmy.ml] [https://lemmy.pineapplemachine.com/pictrs/image/9a5a8a2d-cfac-4658-8ef5-77a885079756.png] There is a stated rule against xenophobia, but I think that xenophobia is not widely understood to include Westerners writing critically of the actions of an Asian government. This is where I went from confused to concerned. Lemmy instances have public moderation logs, which I think is a very positive thing about the platform. So I looked more closely at lemmy.ml [http://lemmy.ml]’s moderation log. Please note that moderation logs are also federated. It’s hard to be 100% sure which instance a mod action is actually associated with, looking at these logs. The previously mentioned user ban and post removal were, I think, definitely actions taken by lemmy.ml [http://lemmy.ml] moderators. My own instance’s mod log identifies the banning moderator as a lemmy.ml [http://lemmy.ml] admin, and the removed post was submitted to a lemmy.ml [http://lemmy.ml] community. I’ve done my best to verify that all of the following removals were really done by lemmy.ml [http://lemmy.ml] moderators, but I can’t be absolutely certain. Please forgive me if any of them were actually made on other instances that do have an explicitly stated rule against orientalism. > Removed Comment Ah yes. Being against China’s racist genocide is racist. China, the imperialist ethno-state, is clearly innocent. by @CrimsonOnoscopy@beehaw.org [/u/CrimsonOnoscopy@beehaw.org] > reason: Orientalism Screenshot of lemmy.ml modlog [https://lemmy.pineapplemachine.com/pictrs/image/2c779f63-b231-4cec-8774-d999c8e26677.png] > Removed Comment Lol. Thinking some countries have better governments than others is supremacist? Whatever, dude. By the way. If there are any countries with decent governments, I don’t know of them. But like. If there were decent countries, they wouldn’t behave like China. by @balerion@beehaw.org [/u/balerion@beehaw.org] > reason: Orientalism Screenshot of lemmy.ml modlog [https://lemmy.pineapplemachine.com/pictrs/image/2232fd34-b6f4-4958-a683-9ca549989922.png] These following moderator actions did not specifically cite orientalism, but did not seem to be breaking any of the instance’s or community’s explicitly stated rules. > Banned @0x815@feddit.de [/u/0x815@feddit.de] reason: Only makes anti russia and anti china, crosspostst from reddit. 2nd temp ban > expires: 9d ago Screenshot of lemmy.ml modlog [https://lemmy.pineapplemachine.com/pictrs/image/ba863eac-59a9-48b1-bc0e-801adebf5d37.png] > Removed Comment Xinjiang, Inner Mongolia and Tibet are all Colonies of China, which it treats as Colonial Territories, by - Forcibly destroying the local culture. Forcefully extracting to harm of the locals. Genocide, abuse, kidnapping, rape. But there is no point in engaging to you. You are a liar. You know you are. When you deny genocides, you put yourself on the same side as the fascists and reactionaries of the past. by @CrimsonOnoscopy@beehaw.org [/u/CrimsonOnoscopy@beehaw.org] > reason: Rule 1 and 2 Screenshot of lemmy.ml modlog [https://lemmy.pineapplemachine.com/pictrs/image/a0e242b1-9a9a-4f66-8361-2f4b9d5a1a17.png] I have no affection for the Chinese government and I do not call myself a communist. I would not enforce a rule against orientalism on my own instance. But I think that lemmy.ml [http://lemmy.ml]’s moderators are entitled to enforce whatever rules they please. It’s only that, as the largest single lemmy instance so far, I believe that they have an obligation to disclose these rules, and an obligation to not ban users or remove content for failing to follow unobvious and unstated rules. I’d like to raise some awareness about this, and I’d like to openly ask the moderators of lemmy.ml [http://lemmy.ml] to state the rules that they intend to enforce clearly and explicitly. I will be very clear and state it again: I am not asking for anyone to change their opinions or to not enforce a rule that they believe in. That is the great thing about lemmy, that we can coexist in this federated community even when we don’t share the same opinions. What I am asking is for lemmy.ml [http://lemmy.ml]’s rules to be clearly stated, because I think it does not reflect well on the broader community if the predominant instance moderates its users and content according to rules that are not being explicitly disclosed.
(lemmy.world)
Lemmy ask you anything (again)
The Lemmy developers hosted an AMA, and I take a look at some of the comments that stood out to me.
fediversereport.com (fediversereport.com)
The Lemmy Developers are now personally blocking and banning users and communities critical of Tankies and the Developers. - sh.itjust.works
A few years ago, the Lemmy Developers decided to keep their political views on lemmygrad while keeping lemmy.ml [http://lemmy.ml] more neutral. Now they are banning users who are critical of their actions and bigotry. Anti-Tankie posts may put you at risk of being banned from commenting and posting on the lemmy.ml [http://lemmy.ml] instance.
(sh.itjust.works)
They responded to the accusations with the following press-releases, but I'm not convinced:
Your proof is that someone got angry that their post got removed for bigotry?
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I'm honestly looking for any reasonable excuse I can to donate. I had a conversation with the devs back when they were begging across Lemmy a few months ago, and I told them that even if they just committed to stop moderating on .ml (while still running it as admins as their test instance), I'd set up a recurring donation.
But as we can clearly see from their ridiculous behavior recently as recorded on the various tankiejerk communities, they have not done so, and so I am not morally comfortable with sending them any money.
The ball's in their court.
Edit: Remember, folks, that when baited by someone from lemmygrad or hexbear, the only correct response is to not engage.
Wouldn't that be bribery?
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I'm honestly looking for any reasonable excuse I can to donate. I had a conversation with the devs back when they were begging across Lemmy a few months ago, and I told them that even if they just committed to stop moderating on .ml (while still running it as admins as their test instance), I'd set up a recurring donation.
But as we can clearly see from their ridiculous behavior recently as recorded on the various tankiejerk communities, they have not done so, and so I am not morally comfortable with sending them any money.
The ball's in their court.
Edit: Remember, folks, that when baited by someone from lemmygrad or hexbear, the only correct response is to not engage.
Well if you do want to throw donation money anywhere, there is always Piefed now.
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can we say that it is insanely cheap?
for an online platform competing with the big social media companies a total of less than 500 per month is nothing.
want to know the cost per active user per month and compare when Reddit and Facebook overhead.
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If you have to slander us, at least try to make it believable.
Ignoring the "fascist" criticism, the fact that you reply to this with Fidel Castro as your PFP is amusing.
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Now calculate the donations per active user and the difference becomes very small.
41425 MAU/$4250.39 = 9.74.../$1
1629 MAU/$60.86 = 26,76.../$1
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If you have to slander us, at least try to make it believable.
First you gotta ask Dessalines why he's banning people for shit like this and then hiding it under Rule 1.
https://lemmy.world/post/32825174
https://lemmy.world/post/32776038
https://lemmy.world/post/32720652
https://lemmy.world/post/32425984And here's your other admin, Davel
A .ml admins' (davel) response to a valid report of "NK is actually good" propaganda/misinfo - Lemmy.World
Memes can be a vector of propaganda/misinformation that’s just as dangerous Join the lemmy.ml [http://lemmy.ml] boycott today and help foster a better Lemmy-verse! No more posts, comments (except to counter their propaganda ofc!) or upvotes on any comms on the Lemmy.ml [http://Lemmy.ml] instance! And consider donating to individual instances instead
(lemmy.world)
Oh yeah, and the time you guys federated with Hexbear and were all buddy-buddy with their tankiejerk comments in the announcement post.
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Ignoring the "fascist" criticism, the fact that you reply to this with Fidel Castro as your PFP is amusing.
I'm glad that you are amused.
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I mean, it's equivalent to the minimum salary i guess. I think they're european, and in france the minimum salary is around 1800€ before taxes. That's not a lot in the absolute, but in the foss world, it is quite comfortable.
It's definitely wrong to say we're poor, no idea where people got that idea. Yet the amount of money we get is very little for a Lead Developer. It also doesn't allow us to pay any additional developers.
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I'm honestly looking for any reasonable excuse I can to donate. I had a conversation with the devs back when they were begging across Lemmy a few months ago, and I told them that even if they just committed to stop moderating on .ml (while still running it as admins as their test instance), I'd set up a recurring donation.
But as we can clearly see from their ridiculous behavior recently as recorded on the various tankiejerk communities, they have not done so, and so I am not morally comfortable with sending them any money.
The ball's in their court.
Edit: Remember, folks, that when baited by someone from lemmygrad or hexbear, the only correct response is to not engage.
First you people complained that donations were paying for lemmy.ml hosting. As soon as that was addressed you moved the goalposts to something different. Clearly it makes no sense to jump through hoops for people who are never going to donate anyway.
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First you gotta ask Dessalines why he's banning people for shit like this and then hiding it under Rule 1.
https://lemmy.world/post/32825174
https://lemmy.world/post/32776038
https://lemmy.world/post/32720652
https://lemmy.world/post/32425984And here's your other admin, Davel
A .ml admins' (davel) response to a valid report of "NK is actually good" propaganda/misinfo - Lemmy.World
Memes can be a vector of propaganda/misinformation that’s just as dangerous Join the lemmy.ml [http://lemmy.ml] boycott today and help foster a better Lemmy-verse! No more posts, comments (except to counter their propaganda ofc!) or upvotes on any comms on the Lemmy.ml [http://Lemmy.ml] instance! And consider donating to individual instances instead
(lemmy.world)
Oh yeah, and the time you guys federated with Hexbear and were all buddy-buddy with their tankiejerk comments in the announcement post.
First you can explain why some people are so obsessed with lemmy.ml that they keep posting about every little thing that happens and even organize a "boycott" (lol). Personally I completely ignore all the politics communities on Lemmy, it's much more relaxed this way.
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can we say that it is insanely cheap?
for an online platform competing with the big social media companies a total of less than 500 per month is nothing.
want to know the cost per active user per month and compare when Reddit and Facebook overhead.
That's specifically development funding. The hosting cost/funding is separate on an instance by instance basis, most likely the majority of funding comes from whoever owns/operates the instance.
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If you have to slander us, at least try to make it believable.
It's written, so it's libel in the USA. Not sure where you are or if it's different.
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First you can explain why some people are so obsessed with lemmy.ml that they keep posting about every little thing that happens and even organize a "boycott" (lol). Personally I completely ignore all the politics communities on Lemmy, it's much more relaxed this way.
Are you trying to pull a Regina George, or...? I think it's pretty clear why people abhor your instance when everyone's getting a piece of it from the very admins.
Anyway, we're not talking about that. You said it was slander, and there you have it, it turns out it's not.
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can we say that it is insanely cheap?
for an online platform competing with the big social media companies a total of less than 500 per month is nothing.
want to know the cost per active user per month and compare when Reddit and Facebook overhead.
you're forgetting about hosting, administration, and moderation! Don't forget to donate to your instance folks
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I mean you can always find an excuse not to donate
There are other projects. Lemmy isn't the only activity pub app.
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First you people complained that donations were paying for lemmy.ml hosting. As soon as that was addressed you moved the goalposts to something different. Clearly it makes no sense to jump through hoops for people who are never going to donate anyway.
I don't know what other people said. My problem has always been that the donations pay for Dessalines to be everything he claims to hate about reddit.
