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Score one for atheism!

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  • H honytawk@feddit.nl

    Yeah, there are exceptions in every group

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    victorz@lemmy.world
    wrote last edited by
    #50

    I would go as far as to say that experiencing any of those things is the exception.

    1 Reply Last reply
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    • B bitcrafter@programming.dev

      I agree completely that the comic is parodying a particular cliche of a militant atheist. I disagree that the intent was to provide serious social commentary.

      And I did not find either of those comments grating; I was merely citing them as evidence that not all of the discussion here is "intellectual". Honestly, the real avenue of criticism that was left open to you that I was expecting you to take was to point out, correctly, that they were heavily cherry-picked for their unreasonableness; it actually surprises me a bit that instead you called them not "really off the mark" as if they were inherently reasonable responses.

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      jaydee@lemmy.sdf.org
      wrote last edited by
      #51

      Sure, that's what satire is. A parody of something to criticise it. Often using clichés to ensure the subject is immediately identifiable.

      This comic is a satire of militant atheists, because the author finds that militant atheists are insufferable and deserve to be made fun of, as the comic is doing. Why else would the author choose them specifically to satirize?

      You chose those two comments to point at examples of unintellectual discussion. I am pointing out that they are not as unintellectual as you paint them to be. I don't strongly agree with what they are saying, but that does not immediately disqualify them from contributing from the conversation. Your comment was the only one calling for the termination of the pursuit of deeper meaning in the comic, which is an anti-intellectual stance.

      B 1 Reply Last reply
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      • H helixdab2@lemm.ee

        Honestly, this is why I don't discuss Mormon history and the massive, gaping chasms in their claims of Truth with my parents. My parents are old--old enough that the family is talking about who is going to call the coroner, who's going to deal with tying up finances, etc.--and knowing that they've wasted an entire lifetime and hundreds of thousands of dollars in tithing on a con isn't going to do anything useful at this point. Fifty years ago? Sure, they would have had plenty of time to come to terms with it. Now? Meh.

        underpantsweevil@lemmy.worldU This user is from outside of this forum
        underpantsweevil@lemmy.worldU This user is from outside of this forum
        underpantsweevil@lemmy.world
        wrote last edited by underpantsweevil@lemmy.world
        #52

        knowing that they’ve wasted an entire lifetime and hundreds of thousands of dollars in tithing on a con isn’t going to do anything useful at this point.

        It always gets me how people can be so comfortable with tithing while so prickly about paying taxes. I've straight up heard "every dollar I give to the government is one I can't give to the church" as an argument, when the town and state I'm living in is joined at the hip with the church they love.

        Fifty years ago? Sure, they would have had plenty of time to come to terms with it.

        Church is one of those third-spaces that the unemployed and retired flock to when they've got too much time and not a ton of money. A great deal of the appeal of these places, especially back in my parents' day, was as a social center with a feel-good energy. As a born-and-raised Houstonian I've seen it work on enormous numbers of otherwise-religiously-apathetic people. The whole Joel Osteen model is Good Vibes as a religious experience. One big Jesus Themed Pep Rally.

        I think you can probably logic your way to a "God's Not Real" conclusion with a generic religiously-ambivalent lay person. But I don't think a simple logic chain is enough to convince folks who consider religion a form of community recreation to stop showing up. No more than you could talk someone out of blaring their favorite brand of Country Music or driving an oversized pickup truck or playing with their toy guns down at the gun range.

        These just aren't logical decisions. They are social decisions.

        Z H 2 Replies Last reply
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        • astrsk@fedia.ioA astrsk@fedia.io

          Is the mother supposed to be sad about religion being a sham or sad that her child doesn’t believe? The comic is too ambiguous to me because the 1st and 2nd panel heavily imply a caricature of atheism often spread by religious people who feel powerless in their own lives.

          E This user is from outside of this forum
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          extanthuman@lemm.ee
          wrote last edited by
          #53

          Having your entire worldview shattered can be pretty emotional

          1 Reply Last reply
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          • M multifariace@lemmy.world

            That sounds like a wonderful journey of reflection.

            My personal view is that hope as a foundation is complete bullshit. My foundation is, in the most positive version of nihilism, "ultimately, nothing matters." I look at it as a clean slate. You get to decide what is important to you and persue it! I study all of nature to find purpose or meaning. I take joy in human ingenuity. I take sorrow in callousness. I appreciate what I have and want better for everyone.

            Hope is a fine outlook but not something to lean on. It can kill motivation when expecting some 'other' to fix things. That can reward the callous and hamper ingenuity. It does not drive people to be better but can drive them to follow depraved systems of belief when they are promised post mortem reward or punishment.

            H This user is from outside of this forum
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            hawlsera@lemm.ee
            wrote last edited by
            #54

            I find when I explain my Buddhist leanings that Atheists get confused and think I am an atheist who just likes lighting "prayer candles" for the lulz and that my talk of being reborn into the Pureland is some wacky metaphor.

            If there wasn't more to this than I should never have been born in the first place.

            1 Reply Last reply
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            • underpantsweevil@lemmy.worldU underpantsweevil@lemmy.world

              knowing that they’ve wasted an entire lifetime and hundreds of thousands of dollars in tithing on a con isn’t going to do anything useful at this point.

              It always gets me how people can be so comfortable with tithing while so prickly about paying taxes. I've straight up heard "every dollar I give to the government is one I can't give to the church" as an argument, when the town and state I'm living in is joined at the hip with the church they love.

              Fifty years ago? Sure, they would have had plenty of time to come to terms with it.

              Church is one of those third-spaces that the unemployed and retired flock to when they've got too much time and not a ton of money. A great deal of the appeal of these places, especially back in my parents' day, was as a social center with a feel-good energy. As a born-and-raised Houstonian I've seen it work on enormous numbers of otherwise-religiously-apathetic people. The whole Joel Osteen model is Good Vibes as a religious experience. One big Jesus Themed Pep Rally.

              I think you can probably logic your way to a "God's Not Real" conclusion with a generic religiously-ambivalent lay person. But I don't think a simple logic chain is enough to convince folks who consider religion a form of community recreation to stop showing up. No more than you could talk someone out of blaring their favorite brand of Country Music or driving an oversized pickup truck or playing with their toy guns down at the gun range.

              These just aren't logical decisions. They are social decisions.

              Z This user is from outside of this forum
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              zombifrancis@sh.itjust.works
              wrote last edited by
              #55

              I got a Father in Law that tithes his retirement income from the military to his church and votes hard republican. But he abstained from Trump voting so he considers himself enlightened.

              They are social decisions.

              Exactly.

              1 Reply Last reply
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              • uriel238@lemmy.blahaj.zoneU uriel238@lemmy.blahaj.zone

                Yeah, I warn those who are challenging their own faith that naturalism isn't for everyone. For me it was a stark process to come to terms that I'm thinking meat, and my species is looking at some imminent great filters even before we are able to create a dependent colony on our own moon, so mostly harmless is going to be more of a footnote than our society deserves.

                As someone who had an early aspiration to add something significant to the collective community that it could take with it into the future, this proved to be a bit of a let-down.

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                theotherbelow@lemmynsfw.com
                wrote last edited by
                #56

                Don't get two hung up on great filters. We could've easy passed a few of them in the last hundred million years. You're much more than thinking meat, you have feelings and a perspective over time. its amazing not a liability.

                Even if boom over, it was loads of fun.

                1 Reply Last reply
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                • H helixdab2@lemm.ee

                  Honestly, this is why I don't discuss Mormon history and the massive, gaping chasms in their claims of Truth with my parents. My parents are old--old enough that the family is talking about who is going to call the coroner, who's going to deal with tying up finances, etc.--and knowing that they've wasted an entire lifetime and hundreds of thousands of dollars in tithing on a con isn't going to do anything useful at this point. Fifty years ago? Sure, they would have had plenty of time to come to terms with it. Now? Meh.

                  W This user is from outside of this forum
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                  whats_your_reasoning@lemmy.world
                  wrote last edited by
                  #57

                  When I worked in a nursing home, I was Christian.

                  I mean, I wasn't. At all. But the dying little old ladies who sundowned so bad that they sometimes thought I was their grandchild? When they asked if I believed in Jesus, I'd bite my tongue and tell them yes. I hated having to lie to their faces, I hate even thinking about it all these years later, but some of them had nothing to look forward to except "going to heaven" by that point. Lying seemed the most ethical choice.

                  J remembertheapollo_@lemmy.worldR 2 Replies Last reply
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                  • tkk13909@sopuli.xyzT tkk13909@sopuli.xyz

                    To be honest, I don't think a lot of people are ready. It's a hard thing to deconstruct your faith and if you're not careful it can take you to some really dark places. For a lot of people it's the way they find meaning and solace in a world of pain. Ultimately if you can find that comfort without tying it to religion that's better but not everyone can. That's my take on it post-deconversion

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                    thefinn@discuss.tchncs.de
                    wrote last edited by
                    #58

                    Sure, but the sooner they start, the better off they'll be.

                    1 Reply Last reply
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                    • W whats_your_reasoning@lemmy.world

                      When I worked in a nursing home, I was Christian.

                      I mean, I wasn't. At all. But the dying little old ladies who sundowned so bad that they sometimes thought I was their grandchild? When they asked if I believed in Jesus, I'd bite my tongue and tell them yes. I hated having to lie to their faces, I hate even thinking about it all these years later, but some of them had nothing to look forward to except "going to heaven" by that point. Lying seemed the most ethical choice.

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                      jdf038@mander.xyz
                      wrote last edited by
                      #59

                      I mean to make it easier I guess I would just tell myself I am convinced that Jesus existed. So I believe in him. But not "in Him" capital H.

                      Or you could imagine yourself cheering Jesus on and hoping he will do well in sports ball for the Jerusalem league. I could see him as a solid basketball player with the magical powers and all.

                      Nothing wrong with lying there obviously.

                      1 Reply Last reply
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                      • W whats_your_reasoning@lemmy.world

                        When I worked in a nursing home, I was Christian.

                        I mean, I wasn't. At all. But the dying little old ladies who sundowned so bad that they sometimes thought I was their grandchild? When they asked if I believed in Jesus, I'd bite my tongue and tell them yes. I hated having to lie to their faces, I hate even thinking about it all these years later, but some of them had nothing to look forward to except "going to heaven" by that point. Lying seemed the most ethical choice.

                        remembertheapollo_@lemmy.worldR This user is from outside of this forum
                        remembertheapollo_@lemmy.worldR This user is from outside of this forum
                        remembertheapollo_@lemmy.world
                        wrote last edited by
                        #60

                        I would think you’d need to tell lots of lies to someone in that state to not make things difficult over and over for them. Jesus would just be another one on that pile.

                        W 1 Reply Last reply
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                        • remembertheapollo_@lemmy.worldR remembertheapollo_@lemmy.world

                          I would think you’d need to tell lots of lies to someone in that state to not make things difficult over and over for them. Jesus would just be another one on that pile.

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                          whats_your_reasoning@lemmy.world
                          wrote last edited by whats_your_reasoning@lemmy.world
                          #61

                          You got it. Sometimes the safest thing to do when somebody’s having hallucinations is to play along, and that means telling lots of lies. Sometimes people think their kids (who are well into their 60s) are still newborns, and they will have a panic attack because they don’t know where their “baby” is. I’ve reassured people that I “just set the baby down to nap” numerous times.

                          I’ve seen people treat dolls like real babies, too, and one time a lady rolled up to me in her wheelchair, asking to see a doctor because her baby (a doll with food smeared over its mouth) wasn’t eating. I even went so far as to get those “magic” doll bottle things that appear to “empty” when you tip them.

                          Point is, you’re right. But I don’t feel as conflicted about all the other lies I told, I guess the religion thing is just too … I dunno, “icky” for me? I’m an out atheist with pretty much everyone else. I don’t like having to go back into a closet.

                          remembertheapollo_@lemmy.worldR 1 Reply Last reply
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                          • W whats_your_reasoning@lemmy.world

                            You got it. Sometimes the safest thing to do when somebody’s having hallucinations is to play along, and that means telling lots of lies. Sometimes people think their kids (who are well into their 60s) are still newborns, and they will have a panic attack because they don’t know where their “baby” is. I’ve reassured people that I “just set the baby down to nap” numerous times.

                            I’ve seen people treat dolls like real babies, too, and one time a lady rolled up to me in her wheelchair, asking to see a doctor because her baby (a doll with food smeared over its mouth) wasn’t eating. I even went so far as to get those “magic” doll bottle things that appear to “empty” when you tip them.

                            Point is, you’re right. But I don’t feel as conflicted about all the other lies I told, I guess the religion thing is just too … I dunno, “icky” for me? I’m an out atheist with pretty much everyone else. I don’t like having to go back into a closet.

                            remembertheapollo_@lemmy.worldR This user is from outside of this forum
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                            remembertheapollo_@lemmy.world
                            wrote last edited by
                            #62

                            One set of lies is about their past or present. The Jesus one is about their future. It’s a lot easier to lie to someone about the former two than to tell them there’s no future, they’ll never be whole or happy again. We all need a reason to look forward, a reason to keep the chin up and carry on. Most anyone can empathetically understand how crushing it would be if they were told that they were going to die soon, so telling an Alzheimer's victim that there’s nothing to look forward to rings a similar bell in our heads.

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                            • J jaydee@lemmy.sdf.org

                              I take this comic to be more poking fun at the portion of atheists who make their entire personality around disproving God's existence - people who try to spread atheism the same way christians spread their own gospel. It's largely not applicable to other atheists.

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                              adalast@lemmy.world
                              wrote last edited by
                              #63

                              Yeah, those aren't athiests, they are assholes. Anyone who prosthelytizes is an asshole. Period.

                              1 Reply Last reply
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                              • tkk13909@sopuli.xyzT tkk13909@sopuli.xyz

                                To be honest, I don't think a lot of people are ready. It's a hard thing to deconstruct your faith and if you're not careful it can take you to some really dark places. For a lot of people it's the way they find meaning and solace in a world of pain. Ultimately if you can find that comfort without tying it to religion that's better but not everyone can. That's my take on it post-deconversion

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                                drmoose@lemmy.world
                                wrote last edited by
                                #64

                                Not to offend you but tbh I hate this thought process and imo this smells of superiority complex "peasants are just not ready for reality yet". The peasants are actually really smart and humans are very good at adapting and changing their world model given appropriate motivation.

                                The world is absolutely ready to rid itself of religion.

                                1 Reply Last reply
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                                • D donkter@lemmy.world

                                  So many people in this thread completely missing the satire. The author is clearly also an atheist poking fun at the highschool reddit atheist stereotype. Taking this way too seriously.

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                                  jsomae@lemmy.ml
                                  wrote last edited by
                                  #65

                                  I didn't catch the self-deprecation. What makes it clear?

                                  D 1 Reply Last reply
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                                  • wizardbeard@lemmy.dbzer0.comW wizardbeard@lemmy.dbzer0.com
                                    This post did not contain any content.
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                                    jsomae@lemmy.ml
                                    wrote last edited by
                                    #66

                                    Religion may be a lie but it's a comforting lie and that helps a lot of people get through their daily life.

                                    ynthrepic@lemmy.worldY 1 Reply Last reply
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                                    • J jsomae@lemmy.ml

                                      I didn't catch the self-deprecation. What makes it clear?

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                                      donkter@lemmy.world
                                      wrote last edited by donkter@lemmy.world
                                      #67

                                      To me, what this comic is saying is that even if you're able to debate someone out of believing in God it's cruel to do it to someone like your mom who has God as the central pillar of their emotional well-being.

                                      It presupposes that you're able to "prove" that God doesn't exist and to me it doesn't necessarily paint the idea of being an atheist in a negative light, just the neckbeard atheist attitude that you should try to emotionally destroy people who do believe in God.

                                      It's a three panel comic so yeah, it's a bit ambiguous, I just think that people are missing that the punchline is really only funny from an atheist perspective. From a Christian perspective the comic is awkward. The last panel wouldn't be a punchline and wouldn't make sense at all, how would these obviously loser neckbeards be able to prove God doesn't exist?

                                      J 1 Reply Last reply
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                                      • J jsomae@lemmy.ml

                                        Religion may be a lie but it's a comforting lie and that helps a lot of people get through their daily life.

                                        ynthrepic@lemmy.worldY This user is from outside of this forum
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                                        ynthrepic@lemmy.world
                                        wrote last edited by
                                        #68

                                        Thing is it shouldn't be comforting to anyone if they really take the details seriously. You could do as much damage really educating someone about Deuteronomy and other fun parts of the Bible and ultimately leave them in a worse state than finding a way to make them an atheist.

                                        We forget an atheist is just a non-theist. Someone who doesn't believe in any specific canonical god. I'm an atheist with a genuine faith the universe has more in store for "me" (whatever that is; I don't believe it's necessarily or eternally "ynthrepic") than a mere human lifetime given what we know about the universe as a whole and how mysterious and seemingly fundamental consciousness is to it all. That gives me some relief and comfort from the existential dread. More than I could possibly get from Yahweh and his totally uncompelling biblical heaven and hell dynamic.

                                        godric@lemmy.worldG J 2 Replies Last reply
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                                        • wizardbeard@lemmy.dbzer0.comW wizardbeard@lemmy.dbzer0.com
                                          This post did not contain any content.
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                                          godric@lemmy.world
                                          wrote last edited by
                                          #69

                                          Me at 13 discovering I wont see my loved ones ever again and there's nobody's hand on my shoulder holding me up:

                                          fizz@lemmy.nzF 1 Reply Last reply
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