It might be too late for the Threadiverse...
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Wish I could easily block all .ml communities (not the comments and posts that .ml users make on other instances, I want to be able to downvote and report them if other non-tankie users can see them).
You can. Just block the instance.
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It was a rather sombering thread, that echoed quite a bit of what I've been saying about .ml, the Triad, general toxicity of their Tankie "ideology" for months now.
I know @ptz@dubvee.org was speaking of general toxicity, but the Triad is a huge chunk of it, the culture they create...festers it. They comprise the bulk of the hostility, I've personally seen it over and over and over again. All the "Just go back to Reddit" or "just another lib Redditor refugee" comments for someone that dared to have nuance.
Hell, I saw hex users fucking cheering .ee's shutdown because it was some sort of psyop/CIA/fed/lib/"They didn't perfectly agree with me" instance. They call feddit.org a "Nazi Zionist" instance for the crime....of not wanting to be arrested and complying with German law...
I haven't looked to see if they've started any "celebratory" posts about Dubvee yet and I also don't really want to, if they're there, I already know what they're going to say in it -_-
Unfortunately, I fear the problem was far worse than I thought.
Ptz speculated that the toxicity has "metastasized". And you know what? He might be right, it seemed to be a lot better off 2 years ago, now....now I feel we might be losing the battle against the toxicity and I don't think PieFed will be enough. Complacency has set in
My hope was that with enough instances defederating from .ml and the rest of the Triad, it would be a tad easier to take down toxic Tankies, trolls and their alts. But, few wanted to burn the bridge with the toxic main devs' instance and now it might be too late. (Cheers to @Illecors@lemmy.cafe and the lemmy.cafe instance, one of the few of note to actually defederate from the entire triad!)
Like ptz said and I fully agree with, this place started with promise 2 years ago, but it appears to be ultimately morphing into 4chan (or like I've been saying, Voat 2.0) after all
Oh well, I've got some thick ass skin so I'll probably be here till the end, till the last sane instance shuts down.
I'll see you there @dessalines@lemmy.ml
/Sadmemerant
Heck, maybe I'll do a hail Mary and start an instance on a custom fork of lemmy with "normie proof" onboarding while dumping a few hundred in ADs (Maybe even on Reddit itself, HA!). I'll flood this place with "normies" LMAO
Now I would really like to make a deepdive and see how did blackskyweb.xyz manage to become huge moderating force in AT proto(bluesky).
I was surprised that over those 2 years bluesky is kinda selfhostable. Maybe decision to make instances more important than people has doomed ActivityPub to become a toxic cesspool. I still remember how technology connections has resigned from mastodon over toxicity.
I saw this toxicity at the beginning and changed how I interact with the network. No controversial topics whatsoever, no OC memes as they will be bashed. Now I just repost stuff from tumblr and comment here and there.
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The point is that, like me, they may not have noticed. If you only subscribe to communities of interest and dont browse everything then you may not ever even notice. I only found out because I wanted to switch instance and after switching i saw how hated .ml was by accident.
After all these years...?
Well, then it sucks for them to have to find out this way, but I do not want to allow such hostages to change my own determined path forward.
That said, PieFed, but crucially not Lemmy, allows for TRUE blocking of all users from an instance. Lemmy has something that is called that but surprise surprise, allows users to DM you, reply to your messages, thereby generating notifications, vote on your content, etc., and so is the absolute weakest "block" I have ever heard of (I am trying politely to say that it is a sham, and is no "block" at all). On PieFed though, any user that individually wants to defederate from an instance can do so - which is a game-changer (enticing me to join PieFed.social long before it was fully ready, since that one feature alone made it worth my while, in comparison to e.g. leaving the Threadiverse entirely b/c I was just so very tired of all the BS that I kept having to put up with everywhere).
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Now I would really like to make a deepdive and see how did blackskyweb.xyz manage to become huge moderating force in AT proto(bluesky).
I was surprised that over those 2 years bluesky is kinda selfhostable. Maybe decision to make instances more important than people has doomed ActivityPub to become a toxic cesspool. I still remember how technology connections has resigned from mastodon over toxicity.
I saw this toxicity at the beginning and changed how I interact with the network. No controversial topics whatsoever, no OC memes as they will be bashed. Now I just repost stuff from tumblr and comment here and there.
Maybe a naive question, but how does Bluesky manage user bans from different instances? Is there a way to federate bans over the whole network?
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I'll repeat a few things I've been saying about this. To keep it
short:less verbose:What people call "toxicity" online relies heavily on irrationality, from the aggressor and/or the target. And politics raises the stakes of everything, so irrationality + political engagement is specially prone to generate catty behaviour, name calling, uncalled combativeness, and all that crap.
Now look at social media. You'll see irrationals infesting every platform. Reddit in special encourages it, and most lemmings are from Reddit.
Why this matters: because I believe people here are focusing too much on .ml and Hexbear, without noticing the problem would still persist without them.
Yeah, while people can have their valid criticisms of the culture of various instances, we need to be extremely wary of the idea that the problem will be solved if we just isolate outselves from the folks we sit furthest from on the political spectrum. I've seen toxicity from folks on all sorts of instances, even if some have more (though I've honestly seen more from certain instances other than the triad)
Literally every platform has toxicity, regardless of its political makeup. If we want to improve the culture of this space we can't just scapegoat a couple instances (that to be fair, do seem to have big issues from what I've seen from other folks, though my interactions have been mostly cordial)
And leftist spaces seem to chronically struggle a lot with in-group fighting and toxicity because we're all driven by our care for issues of moral importance- which often lets us justify being shitty to one another if we can frame someone as the villain in the story of an issue we care about.
I think creating a culture that is unwelcoming of anti-social, bad faith behaviour regardless of whether we agree with the stance or not would help massively. But that is a difficult thing to create structure around doing.
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yep yep! ive been called a nazi because I psoted about the Green Party lol
I know exactly nothing about the green party but like Jesus fuck you'd think leftists would have learned that's an important word to stop diluting given many of us are living under a system slipping into actual full blown fascism and it's an increasingly big problem globally
Its so painfully harmful to leftist causes to go around accusing your fellow leftists of being a nazi for not being your exact flavor of left. We all need to cut that shit out and grow some emotional and interpersonal maturity.
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Maybe a naive question, but how does Bluesky manage user bans from different instances? Is there a way to federate bans over the whole network?
Bluesky's network topology doesn't work like APub's, so this question doesn't really make sense. Like, what is the 'instance' here? The relay? The users' PDS? The AppView? I suppose the PDS provider could ban a user and this would then be indexed by the relay(s). We can argue all day about how decentralised the AT Protocol is, but Bluesky the platform makes no effort to be decentralised*.
* By decentralised I mean a platform controlled by multiple independent actors, a multi-stakeholder platform. Even if you use a non-Bluesky the company relay + app view, it's still centralised around whoever is hosting those.
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Bluesky's network topology doesn't work like APub's, so this question doesn't really make sense. Like, what is the 'instance' here? The relay? The users' PDS? The AppView? I suppose the PDS provider could ban a user and this would then be indexed by the relay(s). We can argue all day about how decentralised the AT Protocol is, but Bluesky the platform makes no effort to be decentralised*.
* By decentralised I mean a platform controlled by multiple independent actors, a multi-stakeholder platform. Even if you use a non-Bluesky the company relay + app view, it's still centralised around whoever is hosting those.
I knew by asking the question we would get into the Bluesky components questions
Let's say tomorrow the feddit.uk team decides to self host a PDS provider.
Is it possible for the feddit.uk team to ban someone, or can that only be done by Bluesky? Would that ban be federated to other PDS providers?
Edit: I feel like Bluesky has the same issue than the Fediverse has with federated bans and alts, but because everybody uses Bluesky's centralized components, nobody notices.
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I knew by asking the question we would get into the Bluesky components questions
Let's say tomorrow the feddit.uk team decides to self host a PDS provider.
Is it possible for the feddit.uk team to ban someone, or can that only be done by Bluesky? Would that ban be federated to other PDS providers?
Edit: I feel like Bluesky has the same issue than the Fediverse has with federated bans and alts, but because everybody uses Bluesky's centralized components, nobody notices.
I
don'thave concrete sources and answers but I know wafrn.net has banned JD vance in their server.Oh… I found the thread: https://kolektiva.social/@sanana/114710330584126102
I think bluesky is split in couple of microservices that you can host individually. A moderation service called Labbeler can directly talk to federation service called Firehose That can block identity as it's attached to a person regardless of hosting instance (PDS).
So you don't have to host whole AT proto stack but only a part of it. Just the data, just the pipeline or just the moderation. On fedi you NEED to host whole instance from data to moderation in one go.
Edit: medium quality blogpost about this https://cyrneko.eu/blog//there-is-no-bsky-social-instance_t5o5fayk1i.html
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I know exactly nothing about the green party but like Jesus fuck you'd think leftists would have learned that's an important word to stop diluting given many of us are living under a system slipping into actual full blown fascism and it's an increasingly big problem globally
Its so painfully harmful to leftist causes to go around accusing your fellow leftists of being a nazi for not being your exact flavor of left. We all need to cut that shit out and grow some emotional and interpersonal maturity.
Thats because in general the "leftists" that occupy spaces like ml arent really leftists at all, they are anti-western idologues. You will very rarely see them posting about things left wing people tend to care about like workers rights, cost of living, housing or things like that. They are far more interested in geopolitics, especially on issues where they can make "west bad" posts.
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We (slrpnk.net) are only planning to move to Piefed due to technical annoyances with Lemmy the software. As I wrote above, the level of toxicity we see on our instance is really not so bad.
Is there a post on this anywhere? I'd consider moving to solarpunk to get off lemmy and away from the tankies, but when I tried the .world piefed instance it was incredibly slow.
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I knew by asking the question we would get into the Bluesky components questions
Let's say tomorrow the feddit.uk team decides to self host a PDS provider.
Is it possible for the feddit.uk team to ban someone, or can that only be done by Bluesky? Would that ban be federated to other PDS providers?
Edit: I feel like Bluesky has the same issue than the Fediverse has with federated bans and alts, but because everybody uses Bluesky's centralized components, nobody notices.
about alts. It would still be a problem but not bigger than usual, as anyone can make an alt. But as AT proto guarantees easy migration between PDSs there won't be a situation where suddenly lemmy.ee users get unbanned because they MUST make an alt.
I think there are still some problems that I can't see but if I would be able to subscribe to toxic user list curated by lemmy.world team for my 10 mau instance I would.
This is a battle with toxicity and so far fedi is losing. Every step to gain a little of safe ground would be a step into right direction.
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You can. Just block the instance.
(not the comments and posts that .ml users make on other instances, I want to be able to downvote and report them if other non-tankie users can see them).
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(not the comments and posts that .ml users make on other instances, I want to be able to downvote and report them if other non-tankie users can see them).
That's how instance blocking works at the user level right now. It only blocks communities on the instance, not users.
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That's how instance blocking works at the user level right now. It only blocks communities on the instance, not users.
Oh, that's unexpected! Thanks for the correction.
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Is there a post on this anywhere? I'd consider moving to solarpunk to get off lemmy and away from the tankies, but when I tried the .world piefed instance it was incredibly slow.
Not yet. We are waiting for an upstream change that would allow us to import existing bcrypt hashed passwords from the Lemmy database.
In my experience Piefed is quite fast, maybe there was some temporary issue with the piefed.world instance?
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It was a rather sombering thread, that echoed quite a bit of what I've been saying about .ml, the Triad, general toxicity of their Tankie "ideology" for months now.
I know @ptz@dubvee.org was speaking of general toxicity, but the Triad is a huge chunk of it, the culture they create...festers it. They comprise the bulk of the hostility, I've personally seen it over and over and over again. All the "Just go back to Reddit" or "just another lib Redditor refugee" comments for someone that dared to have nuance.
Hell, I saw hex users fucking cheering .ee's shutdown because it was some sort of psyop/CIA/fed/lib/"They didn't perfectly agree with me" instance. They call feddit.org a "Nazi Zionist" instance for the crime....of not wanting to be arrested and complying with German law...
I haven't looked to see if they've started any "celebratory" posts about Dubvee yet and I also don't really want to, if they're there, I already know what they're going to say in it -_-
Unfortunately, I fear the problem was far worse than I thought.
Ptz speculated that the toxicity has "metastasized". And you know what? He might be right, it seemed to be a lot better off 2 years ago, now....now I feel we might be losing the battle against the toxicity and I don't think PieFed will be enough. Complacency has set in
My hope was that with enough instances defederating from .ml and the rest of the Triad, it would be a tad easier to take down toxic Tankies, trolls and their alts. But, few wanted to burn the bridge with the toxic main devs' instance and now it might be too late. (Cheers to @Illecors@lemmy.cafe and the lemmy.cafe instance, one of the few of note to actually defederate from the entire triad!)
Like ptz said and I fully agree with, this place started with promise 2 years ago, but it appears to be ultimately morphing into 4chan (or like I've been saying, Voat 2.0) after all
Oh well, I've got some thick ass skin so I'll probably be here till the end, till the last sane instance shuts down.
I'll see you there @dessalines@lemmy.ml
/Sadmemerant
Heck, maybe I'll do a hail Mary and start an instance on a custom fork of lemmy with "normie proof" onboarding while dumping a few hundred in ADs (Maybe even on Reddit itself, HA!). I'll flood this place with "normies" LMAO
It's crazy that I've been on Lemmy for like 2 years and I think I've encountered direct toxic behavior only a handful of times. Obviously I'm aware of the trolls and problematic instances, but those can easily be blocked.
Am I the asshole?
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I avoid news and politics, that probably helps a lot on that regard
Honestly, same. As an ML user (this is my UK alt), I never really saw any of toxicity described by so many others, but I guess I just learned early on to put my filters up and have been living in my own bubble within ML.
If a place gets toxic, I tend to just leave instead of doubling down, and that I think is a pattern that might be alien to some because how reddit used to function: you couldn't just leave reddit politics-wise because the frontpage literally hammered you with it, so you'd have to stand your ground and fight until users or mods waded in. But here? You can leave lemmy politics-wise because the frontpage is either your subs or local posts filtered through your block lists.
I'm very happy in my bubble, and it does genuinely confuse me when someone says "oh, you're from ML, are you?" and I think "yeah... and it's mostly quiet, just the way I like it"
you couldn’t just leave reddit politics-wise because the frontpage literally hammered you with it, so you’d have to stand your ground and fight until users or mods waded in. But here? You can leave lemmy politics-wise because the frontpage is either your subs or local posts filtered through your block lists.
How is this different from Reddit? Reddit has a user feed that consists of communities you're subscribed to and lemmy's All is the direct equivalent to r/all, i.e. Reddit's front page, and you could also block communities (at least with Reddit Enhancement Suite, not sure if that's a feature of the Reddit itself). The main difference is the existence of instances and their Local feeds. Note that it's been a while since I used Reddit beyond looking at Reddit posts that I found in web searches, might be that the feeds don't work like I remember them anymore.
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It wasn't a transphobic comment. It was a response to openly mocking people's choice to raise their children Christian.
It was a response to openly mocking people’s choice to raise their children Christian.
It really wasn't: https://p.feddit.uk/post/feddit.uk/31856602?thread=0.18336647#18336647
The premise of the meme is that's it's hypocritical to think that children can't understand the ideas of being gay or trans, but somehow can decide to be Christian. Your response is mostly non sequitur and implies it's actively dangerous to teach kids about gay people.
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I knew by asking the question we would get into the Bluesky components questions
Let's say tomorrow the feddit.uk team decides to self host a PDS provider.
Is it possible for the feddit.uk team to ban someone, or can that only be done by Bluesky? Would that ban be federated to other PDS providers?
Edit: I feel like Bluesky has the same issue than the Fediverse has with federated bans and alts, but because everybody uses Bluesky's centralized components, nobody notices.
Let’s say tomorrow the feddit.uk team decides to self host a PDS provider.
Is it possible for the feddit.uk team to ban someone, or can that only be done by Bluesky? Would that ban be federated to other PDS providers?
We could stop hosting the account and purge it from our DB, though IRRC the user can migrate to a new host and have Bluesky populate that with their old data, because everything is public on AT and is kept in Bluesky's relay (I think this is a bad thing, just fyi). The user would still be banned from the various labelers as these operate (I presume) on the accounts DID, which should stay the same across migration. PDS providers don't talk to each other, PDS don't do much so don't really need to. They just store data.
Edit: I feel like Bluesky has the same issue than the Fediverse has with federated bans and alts, but because everybody uses Bluesky’s centralized components, nobody notices.
Bluesky does genuinely have some better moderation tools, labelers are something I think even us on Lemmy/PieFed/whatever might want to look at. But these aren't magic and there's plenty of toxicity on Bluesky, Bluesky just gives you some more tools to help manage it. When Mastodon gets the ability to disable replies I think will help a lot.
