#TIL about #Harmony, a bleeding-edge project to build a decentralised replacement for Miscord using ActivityPub, E2EE using Vodozemac, a cryptography library used in Matrix software;
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@rl_dane
> Looks neat!I don't want to get too excited yet, because the last time I got hyped about a new fediverse app it turned out to be made by auto-generating code. But the fact that the code declares itself alpha, and not ready for production use, suggests a more traditional coding practice
There's a spectrum between hand-crafted and vibe-coded. It looks like Claude is main developer/coder and the maintainer is architect, product developer, likely has the skillset to do a good code review. It is a large codebase, but the architecture is well set up and should help with such reviews.
What is unclear to me after a brief glance at the codebase is the extent to which compliance with the Discord API is kept, and whether that is even a goal. Discord uses DAVE protocol for E2EE encryption of audio and video, which Harmony does not. It looks to me that Harmony is only a "Discord alternative" in the sense that it has similar features, but isn't a drop-in replacement. That'd mean you are locked into Harmony when you adopt it, even though its FOSS and self-hostable.
The website announces:
> "We can recreate your Discord server’s channel structure on Harmony today, and full migration tooling is in the works. Want in early? We migrate servers by hand, for free."
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There's a spectrum between hand-crafted and vibe-coded. It looks like Claude is main developer/coder and the maintainer is architect, product developer, likely has the skillset to do a good code review. It is a large codebase, but the architecture is well set up and should help with such reviews.
What is unclear to me after a brief glance at the codebase is the extent to which compliance with the Discord API is kept, and whether that is even a goal. Discord uses DAVE protocol for E2EE encryption of audio and video, which Harmony does not. It looks to me that Harmony is only a "Discord alternative" in the sense that it has similar features, but isn't a drop-in replacement. That'd mean you are locked into Harmony when you adopt it, even though its FOSS and self-hostable.
The website announces:
> "We can recreate your Discord server’s channel structure on Harmony today, and full migration tooling is in the works. Want in early? We migrate servers by hand, for free."
@smallcircles
> There's a spectrum between hand-crafted and vibe-codedI'm open to this idea, but I'll take some convincing. Nuanced contributions to this discussion would be greatly appreciated.
https://codeberg.org/fediverse/fediparty/issues/305
I read somewhere recently that the core skill of a software dev is not just producing code, but *easily maintainable* code. In a Free Code context I would add easily reviewable and reusable code. In which case, tool that write lots of shitty code are anti-tools.
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@smallcircles
> There's a spectrum between hand-crafted and vibe-codedI'm open to this idea, but I'll take some convincing. Nuanced contributions to this discussion would be greatly appreciated.
https://codeberg.org/fediverse/fediparty/issues/305
I read somewhere recently that the core skill of a software dev is not just producing code, but *easily maintainable* code. In a Free Code context I would add easily reviewable and reusable code. In which case, tool that write lots of shitty code are anti-tools.
I am not mixing in the discussion that rages on. I am generally anti-AI/LLM for the utterly disruptive way it is introduced into society and damn all externalities, and the parties (Big Tech, Big Corpo et al, Epstein class) who are the main drivers. That makes it inhumane technology, atm. There will likely be a big crash ending the Tulip mania, but I expect these LLMs to still be around at the other end of that crash.
But about that spectrum.. there are highly skilled developers who use LLMs to create or port huge codebases while keeping firmly in control of the output that is created, applying a set of AI skills they carefully mastered. The term "vibe coding" may not be accurate here, as these folks know what they are doing and stand behind the code that's being created.
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I am not mixing in the discussion that rages on. I am generally anti-AI/LLM for the utterly disruptive way it is introduced into society and damn all externalities, and the parties (Big Tech, Big Corpo et al, Epstein class) who are the main drivers. That makes it inhumane technology, atm. There will likely be a big crash ending the Tulip mania, but I expect these LLMs to still be around at the other end of that crash.
But about that spectrum.. there are highly skilled developers who use LLMs to create or port huge codebases while keeping firmly in control of the output that is created, applying a set of AI skills they carefully mastered. The term "vibe coding" may not be accurate here, as these folks know what they are doing and stand behind the code that's being created.
Btw, I am keeping a list for myself on projects that enter the fediverse that use AI and/or are proprietary. I see these as risk factors to trigger unwanted corporate interest when they demonstrate there's open market space in the new niches they are exploring. And able to do that very quickly with LLM help, or more smartly (than the average FOSS project) with an enterpreneurial mindset.
And the weird thing is.. there is another Harmony project with a similar but different codebase and different website. And this one has #ActivityPub support. It is also AI-coded (project was at v1.2 when the repo was only 2 weeks old, with a huge codebase):
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Btw, I am keeping a list for myself on projects that enter the fediverse that use AI and/or are proprietary. I see these as risk factors to trigger unwanted corporate interest when they demonstrate there's open market space in the new niches they are exploring. And able to do that very quickly with LLM help, or more smartly (than the average FOSS project) with an enterpreneurial mindset.
And the weird thing is.. there is another Harmony project with a similar but different codebase and different website. And this one has #ActivityPub support. It is also AI-coded (project was at v1.2 when the repo was only 2 weeks old, with a huge codebase):
@smallcircles
> I expect these LLMs to still be around at the other end of that crashWho will pay for all the compute they use - both to produce and to run - once Venture Capitalists realise there's no money in it, and move on?
If any genuinely Open Source models exist (code, weights, *and* "training" data under libre licenses), they might still be around. But I suspect they'll go the same way as those federated Metaverse project did when that bubble failed to inflate.
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Btw, I am keeping a list for myself on projects that enter the fediverse that use AI and/or are proprietary. I see these as risk factors to trigger unwanted corporate interest when they demonstrate there's open market space in the new niches they are exploring. And able to do that very quickly with LLM help, or more smartly (than the average FOSS project) with an enterpreneurial mindset.
And the weird thing is.. there is another Harmony project with a similar but different codebase and different website. And this one has #ActivityPub support. It is also AI-coded (project was at v1.2 when the repo was only 2 weeks old, with a huge codebase):
@smallcircles
> I am keeping a list for myself on projects that enter the fediverse that use AI and/or are proprietaryAwesome. Feel free to add any fediverse projects that use autogenerated code to the wikipage linked in that issue;
https://codeberg.org/fediverse/fediparty/issues/305
I'm going to keep them off the site for now, until I feel like we've accumulated enough perspectives on them to draft a robust policy.
> the weird thing is.. there is another Harmony project
Intriguing ...
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@rl_dane
> Looks neat!I don't want to get too excited yet, because the last time I got hyped about a new fediverse app it turned out to be made by auto-generating code. But the fact that the code declares itself alpha, and not ready for production use, suggests a more traditional coding practice
What i'd like to see is the option to join/invite into single channels rather than joining a full and potentially messy "server"/guild.
Similar to what matrix has with "spaces"
where i can have the channels i am mostly interested in easy to see
rahter than whole "servers" that might be.Next i hope they don't go down the messy path discord has done with their facebook inspired modus operandi
for example notifiying me when anything sends a message anywhere or otherwise wants to grab my attention for something that doesnt require my involvment.
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What i'd like to see is the option to join/invite into single channels rather than joining a full and potentially messy "server"/guild.
Similar to what matrix has with "spaces"
where i can have the channels i am mostly interested in easy to see
rahter than whole "servers" that might be.Next i hope they don't go down the messy path discord has done with their facebook inspired modus operandi
for example notifiying me when anything sends a message anywhere or otherwise wants to grab my attention for something that doesnt require my involvment.
@alteredspecifis
> Similar to what matrix has with "spaces"I've thought for a while it seemed logical to replace Miscord with Matrix apps that mimic the UX of using Miscord, connected to a vanilla Matrix server. The idea of combining ActivityPub federation with Matrix E2EE is innovative, and I'm very curious to see how it works out.
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? [[global:guest]] crossposted this topic to General Discussion
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@rl_dane
> Looks neat!I don't want to get too excited yet, because the last time I got hyped about a new fediverse app it turned out to be made by auto-generating code. But the fact that the code declares itself alpha, and not ready for production use, suggests a more traditional coding practice
@strypey @rl_dane It's slop, you can easily tell that from commit messages
Have you tried Shoot? https://github.com/maddyunderstars/shoot
It's another ActivityPub-based group messaging app -
@rl_dane @smallcircles @strypey
Yup!
I bumped into it in a book about personal investing. Don't believe the hype.
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